Claxon wrote: Thomas Keller wrote: I see this spell recommended in all the build guides, but I just don't understand how it's useful. A spell that blinds my party (12 people) seems self-defeating. Many normal tactics simply wouldn't apply to your party. Average group sizes are 3 - 6 player characters.
Obscuring mist can be a really great tactic for a group that plans around it.
But in such a large group, and if there is a lack of coordination yes it could be more of an impediment. If you can work out a way for the party to function within the Mist, then the Obsuring Mist is absolutely devastating. When they are Blind and you are not, then you are probably going to win.
Thomas Keller wrote: Wait. Are you saying that you can move out of the mist, attack, and then move back into the mist? That can't be right. You only get one move action. No, not in the sense of leaving their space i.e. use a Move Action.
But remember or envision this as a static portrayal of a dynamic situation. The bandit has no area within his space with cover or concealment (or he would have those bonuses). He only has his ability to move about within the space protected by his deflection bonuses, armor, ability bonuses etc.. The defender within the OM however has areas within their space which put more or less mist between him and his foe in addition to the above. He's assumed to take advantage of these areas when attacks are incoming and likewise assumed to take advantage of the areas within his space with less mist between them to launch his attacks at the bandit. Neither creature/character is thought to stay motionless through out the entire Round. If there were then other modifiers would come into play ... loss of Dex bonus, Dodge bonuses etc. right up till he would be consider "helpless" as his situation deteriorated defensively.
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Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Thomas Keller wrote: I see this spell recommended in all the build guides, but I just don't understand how it's useful. A spell that blinds my party (12 people) seems self-defeating. Many normal tactics simply wouldn't apply to your party. Average group sizes are 3 - 6 player characters.
Obscuring mist can be a really great tactic for a group that plans around it.
But in such a large group, and if there is a lack of coordination yes it could be more of an impediment. If you can work out a way for the party to function within the Mist, then the Obsuring Mist is absolutely devastating. When they are Blind and you are not, then you are probably going to win. How would they be able to function within the Mist when they are blinded by it?
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Kayerloth wrote: Thomas Keller wrote: Wait. Are you saying that you can move out of the mist, attack, and then move back into the mist? That can't be right. You only get one move action. No, not in the sense of leaving their space i.e. use a Move Action.
But remember or envision this as a static portrayal of a dynamic situation. The bandit has no area within his space with cover or concealment (or he would have those bonuses). He only has his ability to move about within the space protected by his deflection bonuses, armor, ability bonuses etc.. The defender within the OM however has areas within their space which put more or less mist between him and his foe in addition to the above. He's assumed to take advantage of these areas when attacks are incoming and likewise assumed to take advantage of the areas within his space with less mist between them to launch his attacks at the bandit. Neither creature/character is thought to stay motionless through out the entire Round. If there were then other modifiers would come into play ... loss of Dex bonus, Dodge bonuses etc. right up till he would be consider "helpless" as his situation deteriorated defensively. Can you tell me where this assumption of constant motion by the character is referenced?
Thomas Keller wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Thomas Keller wrote: I see this spell recommended in all the build guides, but I just don't understand how it's useful. A spell that blinds my party (12 people) seems self-defeating. Many normal tactics simply wouldn't apply to your party. Average group sizes are 3 - 6 player characters.
Obscuring mist can be a really great tactic for a group that plans around it.
But in such a large group, and if there is a lack of coordination yes it could be more of an impediment. If you can work out a way for the party to function within the Mist, then the Obsuring Mist is absolutely devastating. When they are Blind and you are not, then you are probably going to win. How would they be able to function within the Mist when they are blinded by it? There are a lot of ways a character can work out a way to be functional while Blinded.
If you have Blindsight, you can function in an Obsuring Mist just fine. There is a Spell called Echolocation that will do that for you.
A combiniation of the Blind Fighting Feat and Scent, Blindsense, or Tremorsense will make you almost fully functional while Blinded. Scent, Blindsense, and Tremorsense can all be used to find which square your opponents are in; Blind Fighting lets you reroll your Miss Chance, reducing the 50% Miss Chance for Total Concealment to 25% and reducing the 20% Miss Chance for Concealment to 4%. A Dwarf can get Tremorsense at the cost of 2 or 3 Feats--Earth Adept, I think. A Half Orc can take Scent as a Feat. Catfolk can get it as an Alternatee Racial trait. In addition, there are spells: Bloodhound, Alter Self, and others I'm sure, that will give you Scent. Bloodhound and Alter Self are just level 2 Spells. A Half Elf can get the ability to use (just about) any arcane magic wand as an Alternate Racial Trait.
Greater Blindfighting will work.
There are some magic items that will fill the bill.
Ifrits can see through smoke.
Tieflings can make Darkness, and they have Darkvision.
If any member of the party dips 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, they can give their whole party the ability to see through Fire and Smoke, so then then the Bard pulls out his Horn of Fog, or better yet, an Eversmoking Bottle, Blinding everyone in a huge radius while all their allies can see just fine.
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Thomas Keller wrote: <stuff> ...
Can you tell me where this assumption of constant motion by the character is referenced?
No there's no place where it specifically states such in a rule book. But if they weren't able to choose being mobile then a whole bunch of other things come into play. Like no Dodge or Dexterity bonuses to AC ... how else would they exist? Like I said a static portrayal of a dynamic situation.
Thomas Keller wrote: How would they be able to function within the Mist when they are blinded by it? Note my earlier post in this same thread which provides one way. Scott provides others. Witches and Shamans get a hex that allows them to see through fog and smoke as if it's not there. If you're not a Smog-sighted half orc then a one level dip in Witch can accomplish this.
Furthermore, note that a character fully 5' inside Obscuring Mist can see out! Their targets have concealment, for a 20% miss chance, but they are not blinded. The Blindfighting Feat changes this to a 4% miss chance. Those outside can't see someone fully 5' inside Obscuring Mist at all.
For enabling yourself to see through mist/fog, also add Flame Oracle or Shaman with the Gaze of Flames Revelation or Hex (both versions also work through fire and smoke), or Waves Oracle or Shaman with the Water Sight Revelation or Hex (both versions later on also gives you Scrying and eventually Greater Scrying through water). For Witches and anyone else who can take Witch Hexes (including Shamans and Hexcrafter Magi), the Murksight Hex works similarly but only out to 15 feet, but it also works in water made murky by mud, squid ink, etc.
The above aren't as good as Flame Dancer Bard with respect to enabling the whole party to get the Gaze of Flames Revelation, but with the above you don't have to worry about running out of Bardic Performance or getting Silenced, or about the Bard getting spotted by sound and grappled and strangled; if your party was prepared for it, you could even use Silence to your own benefit (now not only your enemies can't see you until it's too late, but they can't hear you either -- just make sure that all members of the party have some other means of sending at least a basic signal, like throwing showers of gravel and/or flares strong enough to light up the mist even if they cannot be seen).
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I feel like focusing too much on these options to see through the mist might be missing the main point, in that obscuring mist is a great, versatile spell that can be used offensively or defensively, but needs to be used with careful consideration.
I mean, think about approaching a bandit camp with some minor fortifications. They want to keep you at a distance and wear you down with ranged attacks. But once obscuring mist later, suddenly they're the ones at the disadvantage, and you're the one wearing them down and forcing them to close. No weird tricks. No magic items or "dips" or traits. Just a level one spell and some bows.
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Magda Luckbender wrote: Thomas Keller wrote: How would they be able to function within the Mist when they are blinded by it? Note my earlier post in this same thread which provides one way. Scott provides others. Witches and Shamans get a hex that allows them to see through fog and smoke as if it's not there. If you're not a Smog-sighted half orc then a one level dip in Witch can accomplish this.
Furthermore, note that a character fully 5' inside Obscuring Mist can see out! Their targets have concealment, for a 20% miss chance, but they are not blinded. The Blindfighting Feat changes this to a 4% miss chance. Those outside can't see someone fully 5' inside Obscuring Mist at all. I'm still not convinced that this is the correct interpretation.
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Quixote wrote: I feel like focusing too much on these options to see through the mist might be missing the main point, in that obscuring mist is a great, versatile spell that can be used offensively or defensively, but needs to be used with careful consideration.
I mean, think about approaching a bandit camp with some minor fortifications. They want to keep you at a distance and wear you down with ranged attacks. But once obscuring mist later, suddenly they're the ones at the disadvantage, and you're the one wearing them down and forcing them to close. No weird tricks. No magic items or "dips" or traits. Just a level one spell and some bows.
I don't see how the party could be wearing the bandits down when they're blinded.
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Thomas Keller wrote: I don't see how the party could be wearing the bandits down when they're blinded. The party isn't blinded. They're standing within 5ft of the edge of the mist. Since there is 5ft of mist between the front two corners of your square and the bandits, they have concealment against your attacks.
When they attack you, as Magda Luckbender has illustrated, there is more than 5ft of mist between the front corners of their square to the back two of yours, so you have total concealment.
Cover and concealment < Total concealment, in most cases.
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Also, I'll second the recommendation to look at Magic Trick (scroll down to Obscuring Mist; unfortunately, Rules As Written, it doesn't apply to higher level Fog/Mist spells). At 3rd level, you could have the prerequisites needed for Hydrating Mist (probably not for combat, but useful if you are in a firefighting emergency or very hot area); Mist Screen (shapable mist); or Obscure Terrain (trade in the normal effect of Obscuring Mist to make the terrain difficult, and nothing says you can't have another casting of Obscuring Mist have its normal effect). At 6th level, you could have the prerequisites needed for any of the Magic Tricks of Obscuring Mist: any of the above, plus Clinging Mist (creatures passing through your Obscuring Mist are still visually impaired for a a few rounds after they get out of it); Obscure Self (combine with one of the above-posted methods for seeing through mist, and profit); and Quenching Mist (see Hydrating Mist, but better).
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Okay, I'm finding this really confusing, but this is going into Rules Discussion territory, so I'm going to start a thread there. Thanks to everyone for their advice.
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