Will lizardfolk, leshy and hobgoblins be society legal on release?

[Rose Thorne]

...and the Piper will lead us to Rea-son...

[TwilightKnight]

We were just wondering this past weekend if it was time again for someone to encourage players to ignore the rules and cheat. Seemed like we were overdue for it.

[zeonsghost]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

We were just wondering this past weekend if it was time again for someone to encourage players to ignore the rules and cheat. Seemed like we were overdue for it.

I feel like if there's enough players interested in ignoring the rules in a given PFS group, sounds like its time for a home game. If people NEED it to give society credit, they could always run the AP in campaign mode and hand out chronicles when those drop (presuming those rules will exist when/if APs get sanctioned).

[medtec28]

zeonsghost wrote:

Bob Jonquet wrote:

We were just wondering this past weekend if it was time again for someone to encourage players to ignore the rules and cheat. Seemed like we were overdue for it.

I feel like if there's enough players interested in ignoring the rules in a given PFS group, sounds like its time for a home game. If people NEED it to give society credit, they could always run the AP in campaign mode and hand out chronicles when those drop (presuming those rules will exist when/if APs get sanctioned).

I believe they have made mention of retroactive chronicles in this case, so that would be an option in this case. Someone with more insider knowledge than I should confirm though.

[David knott 242]

I think I have figured out the reasoning behind the three new ancestries being uncommon.

It isn't to prevent players from playing those races -- surely that can be overcome by boons in PFS or by GM fiat in home games.

But is does disallow applying the Adopted Ancestry feat to those ancestries. In other words, the Paizo folks from outside Golarion have outlawed adoptions by hobgoblins, lizardfolk, and leshies.

I think I now know what cause the Firebrands should take up once they have eliminated slavery.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Why am I now picturing all of the long-lived races that allow adoptions viewing humans like puppies or kittens when one of their kids brings one home. Elves come to mind...

'Finding Party': "Mother, Father, look who I found? Can I keep them?"

Parents: "You'll have to feed and wash and walk them... and clean up their messes!"

Human 'found'ling: "I'm twenty years old, I can take care of all of that myself."

Parents: "And teach it to not talk back, the grown-ups are talking."

[Katina Davis]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Why am I now picturing all of the long-lived races that allow adoptions viewing humans like puppies or kittens when one of their kids brings one home. Elves come to mind...

'Finding Party': "Mother, Father, look who I found? Can I keep them?"

Parents: "You'll have to feed and wash and walk them... and clean up their messes!"

Human 'found'ling: "I'm twenty years old, I can take care of all of that myself."

Parents: "And teach it to not talk back, the grown-ups are talking."

Parents: "You have to promise that you won't just get bored after a decade and leave them in their cage like you did with your last pet..."

Human 'found'ling: O_O

[Furdinand]

How is this still not sorted out? Why try to sell us books that we can't actually use in Organized Play?

Yeah, yeah, you can use them in your home game; you know what else you can use in your home game? Literally anything. Hobgoblins, centaurs, dragons, space marines, Power Rangers, or Hulks.

If they are going to publish rule books, they should be applicable in venues that are expected to follow the rules i.e. Organized Play.

[CrystalSeas]

Furdinand wrote:

If they are going to publish rule books, they should be applicable in venues that are expected to follow the rules i.e. Organized Play.

Some people don't by a rulebook until after the sanctioning documents are released. That way they never have anything around that isn't applicable.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Unfortunately, this can become recursive quickly if folks don't buy enough books.

[CrystalSeas]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

folks don't buy enough books.

Folks(general) don't need to wait.

Folks(PFS players) don't need to wait either.

It is only Folks(PFS players who don't want books they can't currently use in Organized Play) who would benefit from that choice.

[TwilightKnight]

Furdinand wrote:

How is this still not sorted out?

Because the designers and developers who write the core material for the Roleplaying game are not the people who are overseeing the organized play campaign. The designers are not writing for our campaign, they are creating general content. It isn’t until after the books are complete and sent off to the printer that the OP staff can begin to look at the material. There is also a volunteer team who reviews the material and provides feedback regarding what is/not appropriate for OP. All of that takes time. Would it be nice if the OP rules for a book were finalized at the time of its publication? Sure, but one has nothing to do with the other.

[Philippe Lam]

Furdinand wrote:

How is this still not sorted out? Why try to sell us books that we can't actually use in Organized Play?

Yeah, yeah, you can use them in your home game; you know what else you can use in your home game? Literally anything. Hobgoblins, centaurs, dragons, space marines, Power Rangers, or Hulks.

If they are going to publish rule books, they should be applicable in venues that are expected to follow the rules i.e. Organized Play.

Paizo publishes content firstly for the mainstream users. PFS is a good content showcase, but it's merely a media like others. Delay between content publishing and PFS vetting is inevitable because the process is not as fast as some would like it to be. Not everything can be allowed right off the bat for balance and lore purposes. If they had to write directly with Organized Play in mind, then there's waiting much longer before anything is published. Not exactly ideal ... There's wishing, and how it happens in practice.

[NightTrace]

Realistically if you are playing or GMing PF2 you're earning AP, and AP will be the system that lets you pick/choose boons and the like.

As the Ancestries included in that material are call listed as Uncommon it is *highly* likely that they will have a purchase price. Luckily enough though, you don't have to be a GM! Actually right now until they fix the system you technically get less AP for GMing, but that's clearly a bug :P

Anyway, TL;DR I am sure they will be "legal" but they won't be open/free play. Expect to spend AP to unlock them, etc.

[Azymondias]

Azymondias wrote:

as for title of the topic. apparently no. hard cover is out and additional resources is not updated. odds are they wont update it when pdf comes out on wednesday either. we might be lucky and have new stuff be legal before next year as is how paizo works

Hahahah yes I cast resurrect ritual simply to joke about how AR isn't updated for almost 4 months and this was too generous an amount of time for paizo it seems. Too busy pushing out content than to legalize what they have for their true fans and true customers, the ones who have to follow a set of rules made by people who apparently work at DMVs. Before anyone tries to argue, the rules and stuff are online so there's no real reason for non society games to pay for stuff multiple times. Whereas society players HAVE to buy everything for every single person (and/or family, which may often pay once up to 2 or 3 people). Plus there are multiple apps that include all the info for free, but as I said that's online. So there's actually no reason for non society people to pay for anything really other than a fancy block of paper.

I mean, if society is so small and unimportant as people say, then why are there so many rules and so much wait time. Even moreso than dealing with a post office in December or the dmv in the summer?

[DrParty06]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Well, for Starfinder, about this much as Starfinder is now up to date through COM. For PF2 it looks like it might still be a few days since that is now tied to a different process to try and relieve some of its reliance on Paizo's in-house tech team and free them up to focus on higher priority tasks. More information on that front will be shared as it's available.

SFS approval took a year for some books and much less to get the more recent releases. PF2 books will be happening any day now, and the major backups should be resolved soon.

You in fact don't need to buy a set for everyone, it's been clarified for years that one set of materials is fine for a household. The reason to buy stuff is to support a small business that creates game material that we as players enjoy. You stop buying; they stop existing, and then there's no one to say what sources can or can't be used in organized play.

[Xathos of Varisia]

They've been telling us since earlier this year that we would need to use the AcP to purchase things for characters such as races, feats, archetypes, etc. beyond the CRB. At least the Uncommon things.

[Philippe Lam]

Azymondias wrote:

Azymondias wrote:

as for title of the topic. apparently no. hard cover is out and additional resources is not updated. odds are they wont update it when pdf comes out on wednesday either. we might be lucky and have new stuff be legal before next year as is how paizo works

Hahahah yes I cast resurrect ritual simply to joke about how AR isn't updated for almost 4 months and this was too generous an amount of time for paizo it seems. Too busy pushing out content than to legalize what they have for their true fans and true customers, the ones who have to follow a set of rules made by people who apparently work at DMVs. Before anyone tries to argue, the rules and stuff are online so there's no real reason for non society games to pay for stuff multiple times. Whereas society players HAVE to buy everything for every single person (and/or family, which may often pay once up to 2 or 3 people). Plus there are multiple apps that include all the info for free, but as I said that's online. So there's actually no reason for non society people to pay for anything really other than a fancy block of paper.

I mean, if society is so small and unimportant as people say, then why are there so many rules and so much wait time. Even moreso than dealing with a post office in December or the dmv in the summer?

Manageing expectations, manageing expectations.

[Azymondias]

DrParty06 wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

PF2 books will be happening any day now, and the major backups should be resolved soon.

You in fact don't need to buy a set for everyone, it's been clarified for years that one set of materials is fine for a household. The reason to buy stuff is to support a small business that creates game material that we as players enjoy. You stop buying; they stop existing, and then there's no one to say what sources can or can't be used in organized play.

They've been saying things will be legalized "hopefully in the next week or two" since like, before that playtest in November

So the "mainstreamers" can buy it once for a household of like 12 people that come and go throughout the year between different campaigns, but for pfs "To select an option from a book other than the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, you must own the source and bring it to the table" says guide to organized play. So pfs players have to buy everything for every single player if they want to use any single little thing from another book, technically. Want that ONE spell or item that isn't necessarily op but is just cool? Buy entire book and pray it becomes legal half a year (or more) later? Wouldn't 6 people buying it be more profitable than 1 group only paying it once.

[Rysky]

Burning through those buzz words there.

Unless you’re a subscriber if you only play PFS how about only buying the book once it’s in the Resources?

[Azymondias]

Philippe Lam wrote:

Azymondias wrote:

Azymondias wrote:

as for title of the topic. apparently no. hard cover is out and additional resources is not updated. odds are they wont update it when pdf comes out on wednesday either. we might be lucky and have new stuff be legal before next year as is how paizo works

Hahahah yes I cast resurrect ritual simply to joke about how AR isn't updated for almost 4 months and this was too generous an amount of time for paizo it seems. Too busy pushing out content than to legalize what they have for their true fans and true customers, the ones who have to follow a set of rules made by people who apparently work at DMVs. Before anyone tries to argue, the rules and stuff are online so there's no real reason for non society games to pay for stuff multiple times. Whereas society players HAVE to buy everything for every single person (and/or family, which may often pay once up to 2 or 3 people). Plus there are multiple apps that include all the info for free, but as I said that's online. So there's actually no reason for non society people to pay for anything really other than a fancy block of paper.

I mean, if society is so small and unimportant as people say, then why are there so many rules and so much wait time. Even moreso than dealing with a post office in December or the dmv in the summer?

Manageing expectations, manageing expectations.

Managing their content to not need multiple erratas and just be correct the first time is too unreasonable to expect? Or maybe instead of pushing out content, pushing out additional resources (which really shouldn't take months for a few simple yes or no questions) so people can buy those paperweights, or the pdfs instead, would probably be more profitable then making 30 dozen books.

Selling 1 thing to a thousand people is more profitable than selling 1 thing to 200 "groups that call themselves households because they almost always play at 1 persons house"

You won't buy volcano insurance in Canada or flood insurance in a desert would you? No, cuz your expectations say its reasonable not to because neither have been an issue in an extremely long time. "but what if they happen?" maybe long after the person who bought it is gone.

So as much as I want to buy things to support paizo, I'm not gonna waste money on something that'll just sit there and look pretty for 4-7 months before I can use it when it will definitely be waiting for me to buy it after those 4-7 months and will probably have erratas and changes during that time.

"but it's to support them" well I want to, but it's hard to justify it over and over for years of being treated poorly by them. Nice words of gratitude mean nothing when there are no nice actions backing them up.

[Rysky]

Quote:

"but it's to support them" well I want to, but it's hard to justify it over and over for years of being treated poorly by them.

Not dropping everything they’re doing (that actually pays their employees) to do specifically what you want is not treating you poorly.

You’re the same as everyone else.

[Azymondias]

Rysky wrote:

Quote:

"but it's to support them" well I want to, but it's hard to justify it over and over for years of being treated poorly by them.

Not dropping everything they’re doing (that actually pays their employees) to do specifically what you want is not treating you poorly.

You’re the same as everyone else.

Uh, society arguably pays just as much if not more. Definitely pays multiple times more than normal. If 6 people have to buy things seperately, that's 6 times as much as 1 group buying it for home games once.

Not asking for them to drop everything, but waiting half a year for quite literally ANYTHING is more than "a little" unfair to charge money and not know when you can receive proper use of a product. The least they should do is at least set a definite release date for AR and follow it. Even if it's ALWAYS exactly 6 months post release for it to be added to AR, at least it'd be consistent and people know what to expect.

But for the past few years (at least) its "we'll take your money now and get back to you at some undetermined point in time months in the future. Probably. Sure you can wait to pay. Community says nobody plays society anyway so we have no real reason to put a rush on this system that requires more things to be bought in order to be used,even though there are thousands that will all separately buy these things. meanwhile our "mainstream" customers only have to technically pay once per 7 or 8 people, maybe not even at all because it's all online and free to access and there are no rules or limitations in place forcing them to own it in order to use it like this other system we also use that has thousands of nonexistent customers waiting to throw money at us."

[Rysky]

No no no.

Paizo has not ever placed AR’s release on people buying the product or encouraged people to do so in a nudge nudge wink wink fashion. Never.

You’re really showing off a victim complex here that is destroying any semblance of an argument or point you might have had.

P2 hasn’t even been out for half a year, LOWG and LOCG even less than that.

“”The community” claims no one plays PFS” No, absolutely no one has even hinted at that. You’re seeing people who don’t play PFS and thus don’t rely on the AR as actually offensive to you, going off:

Your repeated use of “mainstreamers” and other buzz words to set up an enemy for your victimness.

That’s... concerning.

[Philippe Lam]

The first post alone was enough to discredit the argument as a whole, Azymondias can't seem to accept the approach is wrong there. The volume and the tone of the posts alone is proof of that.

The how is as important as the why, if not more.

[TwilightKnight]

Azymondias wrote:

Stuff

You do realize that the people designing system mechanics and the developers writing supplements, modules, etc are not the ones involved in OP, right? So the frequency of the Additional Resources being updated has absolutely nothing to do with the product release schedule. In fact, quite the opposite. The OP team often has to wait until a product goes to the printers before they can even start to evaluate it for OP and often there is a time lag between the two unless they just so happen to line up with a break in the task list of the OP developers.

Now there is certainly an argument to be made how much time between release and AR approval is reasonable, but comparing it to the book publications is inappropriate. The design team and the main product development team is not tasked with writing for OP so their release schedule is based on how much they can leverage their skills to maximize revenue.

Given the health of the company over the past 15+ years, I think they know what they are doing, and we should trust as much. If anything, they have shown that they do not follow the advice of us "armchair quarterbacks" when it comes to business decisions so telling them how they should run their business is falling on deaf ears. We are certainly not in a position to assume we know what they are thinking and assuming they are huddled in some dark room somewhere mumbling "muahahaha look at all the money those dumb customers give us"