That's wonderful news from both of you. Gortle, I think I got thrown off by the fact that your guide's date is still listed as Sep '22.
Have a good day, both of you and anyone else reading this! :)
Thanks again!
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I'm not the author of this guide, but the "Definitive Champion Build Guide" was last updated as of 12/5/2024 for the release of Divine Mysteries. (It's already listed and linked among the other 2e guides, just the current as of date in the listing hasn't been updated yet.)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UQ8Eaa7NVDPwTTj4fZMnUP-EfKFFYJ82/edit
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Working on a champion guide right now myself. I'm not as confident about it as my current magus guide but still, I do like the class and want to offer my advise for it, such as it is. I'll share when it's ready.
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And done. The champion guide itself, and the discussion thread.
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I've written a guide to the Remastered Swashbuckler.
A Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition Swashbuckler (Remastered) by Magnus
Also here's the link to the discussion thread.
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I recently made a remastered alchemy guide.
Unstable Reactions: A Remastered Alchemy Guide
When convenient, would you add it to the list?
Thank You
Not gonna lie, I'm in a really sensitive emotional place right now, and I cried happy tears when I recognized some of the template ideas I wrote years ago in this brand new guide. Really appreciate knowing that people still find some of my proposals helpful. Also, really love the invisible tables (or maybe just prudent tabbing) you used to add great formatting to the item sections.
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Good to haz some free guides out there for PF2e+, Azoriel, Nintendogeek01, magnuskn, blammit, AugustusAurora, solkanar, and BrokenZenith. ;)
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What I’d love is if there were an “archetype/dedication’” guide of some sort.
What I’d love is if there were an “archetype/dedication’” guide of some sort.
I include them in my guides, but there are just so many now. I haven't been able to keep up with the last year.
What I’d love is if there were an “archetype/dedication’” guide of some sort.I include them in my guides, but there are just so many now. I haven't been able to keep up with the last year.
Use your sorcerer guide as a staple now.
Community & Social Media Specialist
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Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!
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Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!
We'll just go back to stealing original artwork directly from the artists then. *shrugs in jest*
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Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!
No it doesn't put you in that position. You don't own our content, or our commentary on your content. You never have.
Don't try to enforce a principle that you endorse on others. We don't all agree. Let us make our own decisions. You can try to persuade us. But AI is the future not just for artists, but for hobbists, GMs, writers and guide writers.
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Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!No it doesn't put you in that position. You don't own our content, or our commentary on your content. You never have.
Don't try to enforce a principle that you endorse on others. We don't all agree. Let us make our own decisions. You can try to persuade us.
Okay well it's well within paizo's rights to take anything that doesn't reflect their values as a company off their official forums if they so choose. They are taking a hardline stance against AI, and have expressed that they do not want it on the forum.
If you use AI to create, illustrate, or otherwise "improve" a work, don't expect to be able to use an official paizo platform to promote it. Its really that simple.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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No it doesn't put you in that position. You don't own our content, or our commentary on your content. You never have.
Don't try to enforce a principle that you endorse on others. We don't all agree. Let us make our own decisions. You can try to persuade us. But AI is the future not just for artists, but for hobbists, GMs, writers and guide writers.
If you want to keep using AI for your work that you share personally, that's your prerogative, and we won't tell you what to do, but we will have to remove it from our forums as we don't allow AI on our platform. If you want to share the work you create on our forums, it can't have AI. You can share it other places that allow that, but we won't be able to keep it here.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!We'll just go back to stealing original artwork directly from the artists then. *shrugs in jest*
Any of the art used on our blogs is free for you to use with proper credit and association (abiding by our Community Use Policy), and we're currently working on compiling it all (the art files) in one place for easy access and use.
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Any of the art used on our blogs is free for you to use with proper credit and association (abiding by our Community Use Policy), and we're currently working on compiling it all (the art files) in one place for easy access and use.
This is good to know. I once used a piece of art from a Paizo blog of the Shifter iconic, Zova, on a homebrew document I posted for free on Reddit, with full attribution to the artist in the document and no paywall or associated monetization for the brew, and got told by another member of Paizo staff that that wasn't allowed. That was during the time Paizo was trying to get rid of the Community Use Policy and pressure third-party content creators to use Infinite, though, so perhaps things have changed since.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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This is good to know. I once used a piece of art from a Paizo blog of the Shifter iconic, Zova, on a homebrew document I posted for free on Reddit, with full attribution to the artist in the document and no paywall or associated monetization for the brew, and got told by another member of Paizo staff that that wasn't allowed. That was during the time Paizo was trying to get rid of the Community Use Policy and pressure third-party content creators to use Infinite, though, so perhaps things have changed since.
Yup, things are changing! We're trying to make it easier to get you all access to art that we approve first and make sure the propagation of it still falls under the Community Use policy. It's going to take us some time, though, so we appreciate your patience! But yes, things are changing for the better ^_^
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Any of the art used on our blogs is free for you to use with proper credit and association (abiding by our Community Use Policy), and we're currently working on compiling it all (the art files) in one place for easy access and use.Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!We'll just go back to stealing original artwork directly from the artists then. *shrugs in jest*
I know other companies also do this and it's genuinely for the best health of the community in my experience, so thank you to Paizo for looking for a solution that benefits creators.
Generative AI genuinely has no place in creative content. Call me old fashioned, but I'd prefer to have no images in a guide to images from generative AI. It would make me question the integrity and passion behind the guide as a whole.
I'm sure the guides have passion and integrity behind them, but the use of AI at all makes me hesitant to share with my players as if you used AI for one piece of the content, there's no reason to assume you didn't elsewhere.
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If the offending art is not removed, will this thread also be removed?
Since it links to a collection of links, one or more of which contain ai generated images?
Hahaha. I cannot think of a better way for Paizo to turn the community against them than to start removing useful resources such as this.
Telling people what to put or not put in their own resources HOSTED ON OTHER SERVERS is overstepping, Maya.
Whether Paizo likes it or not, AI is going to be a big part of the future. All this policy is going to do is upset half of the community (specifically the half that isn't anti-AI). Ultimately, Paizo will have to adapt to the new paradigms right along with the rest of the world. You guys may not want it in your own works, which is all well and good, but when 90% of fan created content ends up using AI, or AI tools, in some form or another, you're eventually going to have to change the policy about the links, or face dwindling community participation.
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Any of the art used on our blogs is free for you to use with proper credit and association (abiding by our Community Use Policy), and we're currently working on compiling it all (the art files) in one place for easy access and use.Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!We'll just go back to stealing original artwork directly from the artists then. *shrugs in jest*I know other companies also do this and it's genuinely for the best health of the community in my experience, so thank you to Paizo for looking for a solution that benefits creators.
Generative AI genuinely has no place in creative content. Call me old fashioned, but I'd prefer to have no images in a guide to images from generative AI. It would make me question the integrity and passion behind the guide as a whole.
I'm sure the guides have passion and integrity behind them, but the use of AI at all makes me hesitant to share with my players as if you used AI for one piece of the content, there's no reason to assume you didn't elsewhere.
My guides are for my own reference and are useful to the community. They are in no way commercial or for profit.
My guides had no images in them and I often got badgered to dress them up with art. I carefully respected copyright so I didn't steal images - which seems to be the traditional practice. I'm not aware of much in the way of protests about actual copyright violations on the forums but I assume there must have been some. It is funny what people choose to be sensitive about.
I eventually added a few simple AI images last year - because it is legal and easy.
The guides listed here almost all predate ChatGPT anyway so even if the irregular spelling and formatting mistakes don't convince you, you can still be reasonable confident there is little AI content.
This moralising crusade to exclude AI content is not supported by the vast majority of consumers. In the long run cheap and convenient is going to win out.
As far as preventing harm to content creators and artists. Change is inevitable, most of us have been through lots already and we adjusted fine. Progress always has a downside but it is always more of an oppourtunity than a curse. There is a lot to be said about the simple virtue of the Amish lifestyle, but it is never going to be for me.
All you are doing with a boycott is forcing people to leave and making change faster.
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Personally, it seems to me that Paizo's reaction to artificial intelligence is irrational. <shrug> They're not alone in that.
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Everyone focuses on the AI generation of "creative" content. Many of those concerns stem from the idea that it is theft at worst, and potentially harmful to the livelihoods of content creators at best. Such concerns are 100% completely valid.
However, what people often fail to realize is that (and I'm speaking as a professional content creator and graphic designer of over 20 years) that amateurs and professionals alike have been using algorithmic technology ("AI") for well over a decade.
The removal tools in Photoshop? Algorithmic AI. Sound files calibrated in Audition? AI. Use an online tool to convert the image you got permission from the artist to use from a JPG to a PNG? AI! Checked the grammar of your character's backstory with Grammarly? AI!!!
A broad AI forum ban needs to be VERY SPECIFIC in what it is actually banning. Algorithmic AI tools are already so prevalent in nearly every electronic tool that a blanket ban basically means we can't share anything at all.
And banning sharing is not a good look for Paizo.
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I don't have any guides, but Paizo taking this hardline stance is going to hurt them. AI is going to happen whether Paizo wants it or not. There is no stopping it. Trying to police every instance of AI use by a large, varied gaming community is going to create a real adversarial relationship with some of the most loyal members of Paizo's fan base that spend the time to write guides to improve investment in the game for themselves and others. AI makes the guides easier to write for people that aren't making money writing them, but also operate as free, no labor to Paizo helpful tools for the community.
Now Paizo plans to ban or deny these loyal customers in a futile effort to slow down AI? That doesn't seem like a great idea.
At some point in time, AI is going to be creating DMs and likely be able to take Paizo modules and convert them so an AI DM can run them or support a DM running them for players. It's best Paizo look for ways to embrace this tech than try to work against something that is going to keep getting better and better and better.
Paizo not allowing or using AI tools is like trying stop video games or the internet from being used. It's a mistake and not likely to work out well for the company in the long run.
I hope Paizo rethinks this stance as you can't slow down new technology adoption. It will lead to obsolescence and give competitors an advantage that will lead to self-inflicted damage that could be avoided.
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Completely free, no ad, 100% Turing complete AI only. If an AI system can believably play through an entire campaign over multiple platforms with ever changing schedules, maybe even missing a game themselves from time to time while not trying to convince me of buying anything, yeah, sure, AI can get involved.
Currently, AI is mostly lazy and far too derivative and inauthentic and will likely be primarily used as a tool for monetization and advertising. It's just not a good fit for the hobby at the moment.
WotC will likely always be the leader in the hobby and already has a bad reputation in business practices so of course they'll use AI. Paizo is likely 2nd in the industry and it's on them to set an example for the rest on whats acceptable for the hobby because WotC has been dropping the ball and only gets by as well as it does due to capital and branding.
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If you want to keep using AI for your work that you share personally, that's your prerogative, and we won't tell you what to do, but we will have to remove it from our forums as we don't allow AI on our platform. If you want to share the work you create on our forums, it can't have AI. You can share it other places that allow that, but we won't be able to keep it here.
Setting aside how people feel about AI for a moment, there's a separate fundamental issue here: this is impossible to enforce consistently, for several reasons:
1. It's not really feasible for someone to follow every link posted on the forums and check for AI content because I doubt Paizo has enough staff on this to actually do that job. That's a lot of links, a lot of text, and it's not static (something could "pass" today and then a week later update and now "fail"). Stuff is going to get missed, and people who do get called on it are going to feel like its rather unfair that other stuff isn't getting called out.
2. Actually checking for GenAI content is going to require also reading the whole guide to see if the text is that way. Otherwise the stance is applying only to assets (images and such) but not the actual guide content.
3. How about VTT mods, encounter builder websites, or other tools that get linked here? If they're created with the help of Claude/Github Copilot/etc, are they also banned? Unless someone audits the code or the author says as much, how would that be enforced? Or is this kind of GenAI fine?
4. Applying this stance across the forums creates an impossible standard in the case of a link to social media like Reddit: I can link a discussion on Reddit here in reference to a rule and a different commenter there can add GenAI content, which I have no control over whatsoever. Likewise, this post is a guide to the guides: if the guide links to a guide that has GenAI content, does this guide to the guides have to remove that link? And is the author of this expected to enforce that?
5. Determining if something is GenAI or not isn't cut and dry. Sometimes it's obvious, but other times it's really not. This is going to lead to false negatives, but also false positives, which are extremely frustrating to anyone caught by them.
I'm a big fan of Paizo's "no AI in our products" stance, but this isn't your product and trying to extend enforcement to other people's work feels like an overreach. The guides are a useful community resource that help your customers and are written by your customers. They aren't using your branding and don't reflect on you.
Trying to police all of that is mostly going to frustrate people when it's inevitably unevenly enforced and drive people to either post it elsewhere or not do it at all, neither of which are particularly helpful.
I really think this policy needs a rethink. Unenforceable or inconsistently enforceable rules often cause more problems than they solve.
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If the offending art is not removed, will this thread also be removed?
Since it links to a collection of links, one or more of which contain ai generated images?
Nope, I won't remove the thread! It's still incredibly helpful and has been for years, and that shouldn't be penalized. Just going to make sure that future guides don't have those images and make sure we provide images to be used.
Again and to be clear, we are not telling people what to put or not put in their own resources hosted on other servers. We're saying that once those resources get put on our space, they have to abide by our Community Guidelines, just like any other post. If you made a guide that was riddled with swearing and insults, it would also have to be removed as those are also against our guidelines.
I'm going to address all the issues in this one post so it's easier to follow.
We are not telling you what to do with your content in general. We're just saying that if it's on our forums, it still has to abide by our guidelines. If you want to share your content that goes against our guidelines on another platform, you're free to do so. We have no jurisdiction over what you make in general (as long as if you use our content it also abides by our Community Use Policy of course). We only have jurisdiction over our website.
Tridus is correct, this, like any other aspect of our moderation on our current forum system, is going to be impossible to keep up 100%. We'll do our best to make sure everything abides by our guidelines, but some things might fall through the cracks simply because we're only human.
Another TL;DR just to be very clear - We're not saying you can't make what you make. We're just saying that if it has generative AI, it, like swearing, insults, baiting, personal harassment, copyright infringement, and more, would be against our forum guidelines and would have to be removed from this one website specifically, just like any other post that breaks guidelines. It can however still be posted anywhere else you see fit.
So, to clarify: direct links to generative-AI content will no longer be allowed on Paizo’s digital platforms. Under this policy, it seems the acceptable alternative is to link to a neutral, third-party site, which can then host or link to any relevant assets on its own. Since Paizo’s moderation only extends to content within its own domain, this would appear to comply with the new guidelines.
Does Paizo intend to similarly police 3rd-party products that may be relying upon the ORC license?
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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So, to clarify: direct links to generative-AI content will no longer be allowed on Paizo’s digital platforms. Under this policy, it seems the acceptable alternative is to link to a neutral, third-party site, which can then host or link to any relevant assets on its own. Since Paizo’s moderation only extends to content within its own domain, this would appear to comply with the new guidelines.
Does Paizo intend to similarly police 3rd-party products that may be relying upon the ORC license?
For your first question, yes! Sounds good to me!
For your second question, can you provide an example of this? I'm struggling to relate it to the conversation at hand with generative AI on our forums specifically, but that could just be my autism being rigid about conversational buckets, and I want to make sure I get on the same page as you to give you an accurate answer!
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For your second question, can you provide an example of this? I'm struggling to relate it to the conversation at hand with generative AI on our forums specifically, but that could just be my autism being rigid about conversational buckets, and I want to make sure I get on the same page as you to give you an accurate answer!
Allow me to rephrase:
If another company creates a product using AI tools or generated AI assets intended for use with the Pathfinder roleplaying game, is Paizo going to send them a cease and desist letter?
I'm thinking of apps like Pathbuilder 2e, a campaign setting book for a non-Golarion setting, or Tableplay Gamers' various online Pathfinder character galleries, all of which might contain AI generated content or had been obliquely created with AI tools.
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So, to clarify: direct links to generative-AI content will no longer be allowed on Paizo’s digital platforms. Under this policy, it seems the acceptable alternative is to link to a neutral, third-party site, which can then host or link to any relevant assets on its own. Since Paizo’s moderation only extends to content within its own domain, this would appear to comply with the new guidelines.
I feel the easiest way is just to contact Broken Zenith to give them the link to the guide and then post here as usual but with a link to the 2e Guide to the guides instead of to the guide itself.
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So, to clarify: direct links to generative-AI content will no longer be allowed on Paizo’s digital platforms. Under this policy, it seems the acceptable alternative is to link to a neutral, third-party site, which can then host or link to any relevant assets on its own. Since Paizo’s moderation only extends to content within its own domain, this would appear to comply with the new guidelines.I feel the easiest way is just to contact Broken Zenith to give them the link to the guide and then post here as usual but with a link to the 2e Guide to the guides instead of to the guide itself.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
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Nope, I won't remove the thread! It's still incredibly helpful and has been for years, and that shouldn't be penalized. Just going to make sure that future guides don't have those images and make sure we provide images to be used.
Not only future guides though. Current guides have to comply too judging on the post you put on Tarondor's guide thread.
What about guides that are no longer updated but that contain AI images?
What about guides with images used without permission?
I feel it's awesome that Paizo has their ban on AI content. And that you decided to put easy to find free images for the community to use.
But for those creators of free products such as the guides who could not take advantage of free images at the time, I feel it is a disservice to their labor of love that brings us all such great benefit.