The Sustain a Spell action says this:
Does that mean that sustaining a spell with a lesser duration (such as the "1 minute" spell exampled above) to the end also fatigues you? Or does it just end the spell earlier with no fatigue?
But are you always fatigued at the end, regardless of duration?
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I think that they mean you are not fatigued if the spell lists a maximum duration. Some spells are just "sustained" and you would be fatigued if you sustained them for 10 minutes. If it was "sustained 1 minute", you can't go 10 mins. If it were "sustained 1 hour", you can go that long without becoming fatigued.
Thank you for trying to clarify it for me, but I'm afraid I'm still confused.
So if I cast a sustained 1 minute spell, and sustained it for the full minute, would I be fatigued at the end?
If I cast a sustained spell (10 minutes), and sustained it for the full ten minutes, I would be fatigued at the end.
If I cast a sustained 1 hour spell, and sustained it for the full hour, would I be fatigued at the end?
If the answer is yes to all of the above, then it creates an interesting "some spells are more taxing than others" dynamic.
Thank you for trying to clarify it for me, but I'm afraid I'm still confused.
So if I cast a sustained 1 minute spell, and sustained it for the full minute, would I be fatigued at the end?
If I cast a sustained spell (10 minutes), and sustained it for the full ten minutes, I would be fatigued at the end.
If I cast a sustained 1 hour spell, and sustained it for the full hour, would I be fatigued at the end?
If the answer is yes to all of the above, then it creates an interesting "some spells are more taxing than others" dynamic.
I read it that as you sustained a spell to its duration it ends then you become fatigued. So if the max duration is 1 minute then after 1 minute it ends and you are fatigued. But if you stopped sustaining a spell before the maximum duration then it doesn't fatigue you.
You could even argue that the max duration isn't even 10 minutes doesn't end it. It says more than. So I read that you could go to 10 minutes and then be good. Than anything after 10 minutes is up it ends. Is this 1 second more? Minute?
Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell
I say yes to all of your above questions.
What about "Effortless concentration" feat ? It says the following:
(Trigger: Your turn begins.)
"You maintain a spell with hardly a thought. You immediately gain the effects of the Sustain a Spell action, allowing you to extend the duration of one of your active class spells."
Many questions about it:
- Does the trigger means it can only be used in combat ?
- Does "gain the effect of" means you do perform the action you benefit from ?
- Does "class spell" refers to your tradition spells or your focus spells ?
In short:
Can I sustain a spell that has no duration specified more than 10 minutes without becoming fatigued using this feat as I "maintain a spell with hardly a thought" ?
In short:
Can I sustain a spell that has no duration specified more than 10 minutes without becoming fatigued using this feat as I "maintain a spell with hardly a thought" ?
Well, you can't sustain a spell with no duration. You could cast it again if you have the resources to do so. But other than cantrips that would become very expensive rather quickly.
- Does the trigger means it can only be used in combat ?
I don't think so. There are a lot of things that are intended for use in combat that can be used when not in combat.
- Does "gain the effect of" means you do perform the action you benefit from ?
No. The effects happen, but you don't spend any additional actions doing it.
- Does "class spell" refers to your tradition spells or your focus spells ?
The most reasonable interpretation of that language would be spells that you get directly from class feats and features. So all spells that you cast from your class's spell slots or cantrip slots, and all of the focus spells from the class.
It wouldn't include innate spells that you get from ancestry, or spells that you get from archetypes.
But that is only one reasonable interpretation.
What about "Effortless concentration" feat ? It says the following:
(Trigger: Your turn begins.)
"You maintain a spell with hardly a thought. You immediately gain the effects of the Sustain a Spell action, allowing you to extend the duration of one of your active class spells."Many questions about it:
- Does the trigger means it can only be used in combat ?
- Does "gain the effect of" means you do perform the action you benefit from ?
- Does "class spell" refers to your tradition spells or your focus spells ?In short:
Can I sustain a spell that has no duration specified more than 10 minutes without becoming fatigued using this feat as I "maintain a spell with hardly a thought" ?
First of all I'd just like to point out that "maintain a spell with hardly a thought" is not rules text, as is often the case with the first sentence of a feat. It is an in character flavor explanation of what the feat allows you to do, which is then explained afterward in terms of game mechanics.
Now, moving on to the actual text: Effortless concentration doesn't say it changes the amount of time a spell can be sustained, nor does it change what happens when you sustain a spell. It very specifically gives you the effects of the "sustain a spell" action, which is limited to 10min or the spell's max sustained duration as is stated in the description of the action itself.
As for out of combat, that's probably going to be DM dependent based on whether they think of "turns" as happening in encounter mode. I would allow it as long as the amount of time you're trying to sustain it doesn't exceed it's max sustained duration.
As for the definition of "class spell" I don't think it's technically defined anywhere, but it's most definitely not limited to just focus spells, and I can't think of a reason why it would be limited to not include focus spells, as both are given by your class. The definition I would go with is quite simply any spells gained from your main class. If you picked up a sub-class or if you have some innate spells due to your ancestry, then I wouldn't allow it to be used for those.
Yeah, the language could be interpreted that way, especially the "Effortless" portion, except it doesn't play out in the mechanics. The feat's mechanic translates "effortless" and "hardly a thought" into Sustain being brief (a free action), yet doesn't mention that it's less taxing over time (the gist of the question).
So yeah, you can Sustain quicker over those 10 minutes (which is mostly meaningless, yet may leave room to do another Activity w/ a lenient GM), but the Sustain fatigues the caster just the same.
Thanks for the answers.
I get it now for the class spell.
I also get the difference in logic about describing flavour and rules
Here the remaining unclear thing for me:
"You immediately gain the effects of the Sustain a Spell action"
I interprete this as follow (please let me know if i am wrong):
As the effortless concentration is a free action that allows you to "gain the effects of" it's not the same thing as doing that action, so you're not actually doing the "Sustain a spell" action and therefore don't apply the listed traits of that action (aka Concentrate).
The free action itself has only traits related to the class so there is no concentration here.
I guess the intent here is mostly combat encounter focused, but I don't see anything that would justify you being fatigued after 10 minutes with that feat.
But reading again the rules for sustained spells I got this:
"Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell and makes you fatigued"
I think here that the best way to consider this is to end the sustained spell (whether it was sustained by the action or the effects of it) but not be fatigued as the intent there is to mimic exhaustion from a lasting and demanding activity (aka Concentration here).
Here the remaining unclear thing for me:
"You immediately gain the effects of the Sustain a Spell action"
I interprete this as follow (please let me know if i am wrong):
As the effortless concentration is a free action that allows you to "gain the effects of" it's not the same thing as doing that action, so you're not actually doing the "Sustain a spell" action and therefore don't apply the listed traits of that action (aka Concentrate).
The free action itself has only traits related to the class so there is no concentration here.
That is certainly a reasonable interpretation.
A slightly different interpretation would be that the Sustain A Spell action becomes a subordinate action to the Effortless Concentration action. At that point you would actually be doing the Sustain A Spell action even though you wouldn't be paying any of your turn's standard actions for it.
Other than triggering reactions for the concentrate trait, there isn't much difference in the mechanics between the two options.
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Came into this thread not realizing it was one of mine. XD
The Sustain a Spell action says this:
Does that mean that sustaining a spell with a lesser duration (such as the "1 minute" spell exampled above) to the end also fatigues you? Or does it just end the spell earlier with no fatigue?
IMO, this is more a general rule for sustaining a spell if it has no finite duration, since it lists the exception to that rule with the quote "unless the spell lists a different maximum duration (such as "sustained up to 1 minute" or "sustained up to 1 hour")." I have actually come up with an example of this from recent actual play between two tables.
As an example, you have Bless versus Dancing Lights. Both of these are 1st level spells, and as such are equal in terms of spell power.
Bless has "sustained up to 1 minute." This is one of the example "different maximum durations" that the rule lists as an exception to the Fatiguing rules. As such, you can't be Fatigued from this amount of sustaining, since the general rule doesn't apply. Even if it does, the fact that you are sustaining it for a fraction of the general rule falls under an inverted "Too Good To Be True" clause, especially since you can't sustain it for more than the listed duration to make the general rule (which is more than a listed duration) plausible.
Dancing Lights, on the other hand, simply has "sustained." This means the duration is open ended, and doesn't have a finite duration; as long as you are spending actions (or have abilities that are) sustaining the spell (and other conditions are being met), it persists, and if no actions are being taken to sustain the spell (or conditions cease being met), it ends. As such, this is a proper candidate for the general rule to take place, meaning a character maintaining this spell as an Exploration activity for more than 10 minutes makes them Fatigued. In that case, if done as an Exploration activity, they would automatically cease regardless of this clause due to the Fatigued condition taking place and denying them to perform Exploration activities, meaning this is a bit of redundant rules (which I feel is what is causing the confusion here).
Even if we try to argue that they should both cause you to be Fatigued at the end of their sustaining, remember that the rule calls for it to be more than 10 minutes, or in this case, more than their duration, which for Bless is practically physically impossible (since its duration is finite and can't be exceeded by most any means), and if Dancing Lights is maintained for 10 minutes exactly (and not a second more), it doesn't cause Fatigue. Only if it is more than that, which is at least approximately 2 seconds of real time, since that is the minimum amount of effort needed to maintain the spell, would that take place.
In addition, suggesting that Bless requires more taxing concentration compared to Dancing Lights is adding rules to things that aren't there, since there is nothing to suggest that two spells of equal power require different levels of concentration, or more efforts of concentration (such as requiring more actions, or needing spellcasting checks, etc). With another comparison, Flaming Sphere and Spiritual Weapon expressly list the capacity with which you can Sustain the Spell; Spiritual Weapon lets you sustain it multiple times, whereas Flaming Sphere (and any other spell, as a general rule,) doesn't. Nothing in the general rules says this is the case, nothing in the spell descriptions implies this to be true, and so on. It's just grasping for straws that simply don't exist, even if it's trying to be flavorful in explaining why their durations are different.
Came into this thread not realizing it was one of mine. XD
To be fair, everything previous to 2020 may as well be lost to antiquity.
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As an example, you have Bless versus Dancing Lights. Both of these are 1st level spells, and as such are equal in terms of spell power.Bless has "sustained up to 1 minute."
No, it doesn't. Bless lasts 1 minute.
Bless and Bane have a concentrate action that the caster can use to expand the radius. But Bless will last 1 minute whether its radius is extended or not.
Though I will agree that sustaining Dancing Lights for 10 minutes or less does not cause fatigue.