Ship Book

[CorvusMask]

So I think we know that this will be a thing EVENTUALLY so what would you like to see in it?

I guess I'd like to see ultranaught rules from Dead Suns because I'm not sure its handy having to always refer to AP volume when checking those rules :D

[thecursor]

Better art for starships.

Right now there is nothing terribly interesting about the way starships are visualized and nothing about the way they are presented feels epic. Many of the illustrations are flat and the designs are almost bland.

The first time I saw the Starfinder Pegasus and Drake I admired how nice it was that they let a middle schooler design space ships.

The Xenowarden ships look like someone stapled a tree to an aircraft carrier, which could have been a fun design if pulled off correctly.

In Fate of the Fifth, we see a Swarm star ship and after hearing from various sources about how the Swarm grows bio-mechanical vessels that are themselves part of the Swarm...we see a plain old regular starship that in no way looks biological or grown.

The art in Armory was great, I mean there was a squid that looked like it fired it's own teeth for bullets and a space suit that LOOKED LIKE SOMEONE PEELED A CENOBITE TO MAKE IT. Fantastic.

So why can't the star ships look that good?

[Tiberius1701]

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

[Ixal]

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

[Vexies]

the MOST needed thing in my opinion is actual guidelines that work for upgrading ships. Right now while the ship building rules are functional they become immediately broken the moment a group of players upgrade their ship making all NPC ships (at least in printed dentures) superfluous. Beyond that expanded ship rolls and combat actions.

[Hmm]

Put me down for more ship art! Actually, I just want more ship everything!

Hmm

[Lord Fyre]

If … more content is needed for a "book" … How about a Ships and Vehicles book?

thecursor wrote:

Better art for starships.

Right now there is nothing terribly interesting about the way starships are visualized and nothing about the way they are presented feels epic. Many of the illustrations are flat and the designs are almost bland.

The first time I saw the Starfinder Pegasus and Drake I admired how nice it was that they let a middle schooler design space ships.

Some deck plans would be nice too.

[Ixal]

Imo what a starship book needs is not (only) new ships, but more rules for starships to make them more interesting.

- Expanded rules on more combatants, both multiple enemies and having several PC ships, up to 1 ship per PC

- More components, both combat components that allow you to use special action, preferable ones that need to be staffed and activated by PCs with a roll so they don't always roll the same check in every round, and non-combat components for sandbox games

- Variant rules for non autoleveling starships where PCs actually have to invest money into them so they have to decide if they want to improve their equipment or starship

- Optional rules for dealing with PCs/vehicles firing at starships and vice versa and orbital bombardment instead of insisting that it is impossible for no reason.

[thecursor]

Lord Fyre wrote:

If … more content is needed for a "book" … How about a Ships and Vehicles book?

I think some of us floated the idea of calling a ship book "Starfinder Starship Registry" (Since a "Bestiary" is for beasts and creatures while a "Codex" is a listing of something, it would follow that starships would have a "Registry" of ships and vehicles).

I think "ships" could be suitably broad to include vehicles but I kind of like the idea of keeping large military vehicles in the Armory book because that would be where they would be listed in the Starfinder Universe (I have presented the Starfinder Armory Book as an in game document offered by large corporate retailers in their "Adventure and Explorer" catalog.)

Quote:

Some deck plans would be nice too.

God yes!

[Tiberius1701]

Ixal wrote:

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

The point isn't for them to be a 'match' for anything, and not to be for PCs to use. Being in a complete world means you're going to need civilian ships for cases like escort or protection missions, random encounters (if the players want to be pirates), finding them adrift (deck plans), and more. The whole world isn't just one big battle arena.

[Tiberius1701]

Vexies wrote:

the MOST needed thing in my opinion is actual guidelines that work for upgrading ships. Right now while the ship building rules are functional they become immediately broken the moment a group of players upgrade their ship making all NPC ships (at least in printed dentures) superfluous. Beyond that expanded ship rolls and combat actions.

I don't understand what the problem is. Your Tier goes up, you have more BP. You swap out whatever stuff you want, up to the new BP limit. Then, in game, you build some refit-time into the storyline (like you do for training time between character levels). What's the issue?

[Ixal]

Tiberius1701 wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

The point isn't for them to be a 'match' for anything, and not to be for PCs to use. Being in a complete world means you're going to need civilian ships for cases like escort or protection missions, random encounters (if the players want to be pirates), finding them adrift (deck plans), and more. The whole world isn't just one big battle arena.

In Starfinder it is.

You do not need a ships stats to board adrift spaceships or do anything else besides combat and the way SF works it doesn't matter what their stats are when the PCs become pirates because they automatically get a superior combat ships for leveling alone which would defeat anything that can reasonably be described as civilian.

[Tim Statler]

One of the local players would like for it to include Giant Mecha.

[Metaphysician]

Ixal wrote:

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

Um, what?

1. Why would "civilian" ships need, intrinsically, to be a match for the PCs? The PCs having a better ship than J Random Space Trucker just means. . . they are a bunch of heroic PCs of decent level, while he is J Random Space Trucker. The heroes are *supposed* to grow beyond the ability of random civilians to challenge them.

2. This is simply false. What, exactly, do you think people use to transport people, move goods, repair and salvage damaged ships, explore strange astronomical phenomena, and do all the other things that exist outside combat? Wishful thinking?

[Ixal]

Metaphysician wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

Um, what?

1. Why would "civilian" ships need, intrinsically, to be a match for the PCs? The PCs having a better ship than J Random Space Trucker just means. . . they are a bunch of heroic PCs of decent level, while he is J Random Space Trucker. The heroes are *supposed* to grow beyond the ability of random civilians to challenge them.

2. This is simply false. What, exactly, do you think people use to transport people, move goods, repair and salvage damaged ships, explore strange astronomical phenomena, and do all the other things that exist outside combat? Wishful thinking?

1+2 Why do you need stats for such ships, especially ones you can't simply throw together? There is no instance except maybe very constructed fringe cases where their stats would be needed when the PCs interact with them.

[Nerdy Canuck]

Ixal wrote:

Metaphysician wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

Um, what?

1. Why would "civilian" ships need, intrinsically, to be a match for the PCs? The PCs having a better ship than J Random Space Trucker just means. . . they are a bunch of heroic PCs of decent level, while he is J Random Space Trucker. The heroes are *supposed* to grow beyond the ability of random civilians to challenge them.

2. This is simply false. What, exactly, do you think people use to transport people, move goods, repair and salvage damaged ships, explore strange astronomical phenomena, and do all the other things that exist outside combat? Wishful thinking?

1+2 Why do you need stats for such ships, especially ones you can't simply throw together? There is no instance except maybe very constructed fringe cases where their stats would be needed when the PCs interact with them.

Yeah, this is not a system where random low-level stuff remains meaningfully threatening when you get to high levels; at a certain point, those civilian ships might as well be using tissue paper as hull plating.

[Vexies]

Tiberius1701 wrote:

Vexies wrote:

the MOST needed thing in my opinion is actual guidelines that work for upgrading ships. Right now while the ship building rules are functional they become immediately broken the moment a group of players upgrade their ship making all NPC ships (at least in printed dentures) superfluous. Beyond that expanded ship rolls and combat actions.

I don't understand what the problem is. Your Tier goes up, you have more BP. You swap out whatever stuff you want, up to the new BP limit. Then, in game, you build some refit-time into the story line (like you do for training time between character levels). What's the issue?

Have you GM'd games where players have upgraded their ships? Now in home brew games its easier to contend with because the GM is typically making ships from scratch anyway but it immediately breaks any and all printed ships as the PC ship laughably outclasses any printed ship anywhere close to their own tier almost immediately. If you primarily run printed adventure paths this becomes a problem the moment PCs upgrade their ship. They can almost immediately make their ship so unkillable all printed ships become a joke or upgrade their weapons to the point where combat takes a couple of turns of "pew" "pew" boom and the NPC ship is gone. Now while that is entertaining for a couple of combats it quickly tuns Starship combat into a joke.. which is why actual guidelines for what you can build and how much you can upgrade when desperately need to be introduced into the rules. There are guidelines for absolutely every other aspect of leveling and upgrading from guns to armor to PC leveling.. yet nothing for Starship combat.

[WatersLethe]

I want:

Minor revamp of space combat rules to make turrets and shields less auto-win.

New space combat rules that give you more gameplay options such as:
-Effective deployable fighters
-"Terrain" manipulation, like gravity wells or web clouds
-Better rules for fighting close to a much larger structure
-Troop rules for large scale battles

A ton of ship floorplan maps. Like, easily half the book could be this.

More crew actions and options

Guidelines or suggestions for cargo transport missions (cost, risk, items, destinations, buyers and sellers)

Revamp of expansion bays, to divorce them more from combat effectiveness (since it sucks to not be able to have cool stuff because you don't want to die)

Guidelines about adding Ship AI as a functional hireling that can make checks.

Shipyard chapter about notable shipyards and docks with things to do there, maps of some locations, and generic NPCs.

[Milo v3]

I'd want an overhaul of the Starship combat system overall. At the very least it would need to reduce the work load of gamesmasters and increase the diversity of encounters to not be immediate skipped over as a book by my group.

[zebulon8]

Vexies wrote:

If you primarily run printed adventure paths this becomes a problem the moment PCs upgrade their ship. They can almost immediately make their ship so unkillable all printed ships become a joke

If you find the NPC ships are not tough enough there are really simple ways to fix this:

1: increase the pilot skill of the enemy pilot.
2: make the best weapons on the enemy ship turret weapons
3: upgrade the shields

Whoever moves last in starship combat will usually win. The pilot skill is the best determinant of this.

As ships upgrade so does their tier. Just make sure the NPC ships are also of the appropriate tier.

[Rohne]

Definitely ship art:
I would like to see the ships have recognizable architectural styles. For example, if I show my players a picture of an approaching warship, those with ship knowledge could recognize if its from the Veskarium, the Azlanti Star Empire, or a local Ysoki vessel.

Like I would expect an elven ship to be designed very organically with a smooth flow with intricate detail, whereas a dwarven vessel might be more blocky, thick with a reinforced hull, and much more geometric in design.

[johnlocke90]

Ixal wrote:

Imo what a starship book needs is not (only) new ships, but more rules for starships to make them more interesting.

- Expanded rules on more combatants, both multiple enemies and having several PC ships, up to 1 ship per PC

- More components, both combat components that allow you to use special action, preferable ones that need to be staffed and activated by PCs with a roll so they don't always roll the same check in every round, and non-combat components for sandbox games

- Variant rules for non autoleveling starships where PCs actually have to invest money into them so they have to decide if they want to improve their equipment or starship

- Optional rules for dealing with PCs/vehicles firing at starships and vice versa and orbital bombardment instead of insisting that it is impossible for no reason.

Expanded rules for ship combat is risky.

The problem is that most people don't do much of it, so the rules need to be easy to learn and remember. It sucks having to figure out how to do something because we haven't had ship combat in 3 sessions.