taking sorcerer and champion dedication is the only build that seems to give you enough defense to be able to be full time frontline...that i can think of...
I would so much like to make a wizard/martial str based melee build...but they don't seem to work...if you go fighter, your AC will suck....you can't go champion because cha14 hurts too much...rouge gives you light armor and could work for dex melee build but deals no dmg...ranger does nothing for fullcaster melee...
any ideas?
Wait until the Advanced Players Guide, where hopefully there will be more ways to get heavy armor proficiency. It's probably not the answer you want, but with scaling armor proficiency this hard to get ahold of, Str based gishes just aren't viable in core (barring the aforementioned sorcerer/champion).
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Well, not ones that are caster primary. You could go fighter primary, wizard archetype, if you want to be better at the melee half of melee/caster.
Well, not ones that are caster primary. You could go fighter primary, wizard archetype, if you want to be better at the melee half of melee/caster.
I'm mostly concerned about defense...I don't mind that I'll use cantrips for my dmg, with just an occasional sword swing here and there, but is there a way to build any kind of melee wizard?(that doesn't suck ofc)
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Heavy armor is only 1 point behind unarmored, you can get it by 3rd level on a human of you go all in. Not ideal, but you can work with it. My first thought is to be a necromancer and use bonus slots to have a lot of false lives on hand, though you may be better off picking a school with a 1-action focus spell to fuel bespell weapon. Also get fighter resiliency with a lot of MC feats into fighter to help. Fortunately, a lot of wizard class feats aren't great for gishes. Try some fighter feats that will help your defense.
Your defense will always be poor.
As you struggle for AC, your h.p. will be your undoing as will your Saves. If starting late game, you might be able to manage something, but how much of your career do you want to play getting to the concept?
Actual warriors have a tough time up there, so I wouldn't say full-time frontline is viable ever.
The exception might be if you have access to Heal to keep yourself going.
Druids therefore make a good base, having both Heal & the gish-y blaster spells. Primal or Divine Sorcerer...maybe? The hit point gap is huge, keeping in mind that warriors boost their hit points too!
You can get some gish flavor w/ Cantrips & Focus Spells on a warrior. Champion's a natural since they have a Focus Pool and have access to Domain abilities that would tie to their own class DC. It's better than MCD because you'll be able to cast after every 10-minute break rather than only Cantrips or a few times a day.
Time out. Why does going fighter with a sorcerer dedication mean you have bad AC?
Time out. Why does going fighter with a sorcerer dedication mean you have bad AC? Or do you need to start with wizard and add a martial?
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A fighter with sorcerer dedication doesn't have bad AC. A strength focused wizard with fighter dedication would be worried about lower AC, because of their combination of low dexterity and low proficiency level with armor.
taking sorcerer and champion dedication is the only build that seems to give you enough defense to be able to be full time frontline...that i can think of...
I would so much like to make a wizard/martial str based melee build...but they don't seem to work...if you go fighter, your AC will suck....you can't go champion because cha14 hurts too much...rouge gives you light armor and could work for dex melee build but deals no dmg...ranger does nothing for fullcaster melee...
any ideas?
Barbarian (Dragon instinct) with Sorcerer Dedication (Draconic bloodline)? Use barbarian feats for "partial transformation" to dragon form in addition to getting spells (1st-Sudden Charge, 2nd-Sorcerer Dedication, 4th-Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, 6th-Dragon's Rage Breath, 8th-Bloodline Breadth, 10th-Terrifying Howl, 12th-Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, 14th-Dragon's Rage Wings, etc.). Goblin (Charhide) might make an interesting choice of ancestry (1st-Goblin Scuttle, 5th-Burn It!, 9th-Skittering Scuttle, etc.).
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Alternately, a fighter/wizard with Dual-Handed Assault, Basic Arcana (Reach Spell or Widen Spell), and Advanced Arcana (Bespell Weapon) might work. Fitting that in around the spellcasting might require some tough decisions, however.
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Alternately, a fighter/wizard with Dual-Handed Assault, Basic Arcana (Reach Spell or Widen Spell), and Advanced Arcana (Bespell Weapon) might work. Fitting that in around the spellcasting might require some tough decisions, however.
After some more consideration, I'm thinking something like this:
Human (versatile) fighter (Str)1st- Adopted Ancestry (Dwarf), Unconventional Weaponry (Dwarven Waraxe), Sudden Charge
2nd- Wizard Dedication, (skill feat)
3rd- Ancestral Paragon (Natural Ambition [Power Attack]), Expert in Arcana
4th- Basic Wizard Spellcasting, Magical Shorthand
5th- Unburdened Iron, (skill increase)
6th- Dual-Handed Assault, (skill feat)
7th- Fleet, (skill increase)
8th- Basic Arcana (Widen Spell), (skill feat)
9th- General Training (Toughness), (skill increase)
10th- Advanced Arcana (Bespell Weapon), (skill feat)
11th- Incredible Initiative, Master in Arcana
12th- Expert Wizard Spellcasting, (skill feat)
13th- General Training (general feat), (skill increase)
14th- Arcane Breadth, (skill feat)
15th- (general feat), (skill increase)
16th- Brutal Finish, (skill feat)
17th- General Training (general feat), Legendary in Arcana
18th- Master Wizard Spellcasting, (skill feat)
19th- (general feat), (skill increase)
20th- Weapon Supremacy, (skill feat)
Note that Combat Flexibility and Improved Flexibility add other fighter feats that can be switched at the start of each day (such as Furious Focus, Shatter Defenses [and possibly Fearsome Brute with Improved Flexibility], Sudden Leap [and possibly Felling Strike with Improved Flexibility], Spring Attack, Whirlwind Strike, etc.).
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Martial who MCAs caster works pretty well since the caster MCA grant everything you need to be a caster, spells and proficiencies
Caster who MCAs martial doesn't work as well since you can't get both weapons and armor from the same archetype. It works fine if you just want armor (champion) or just want weapons (fighter) but it's slow to realize your concept if you want both.
A war-wizard or war-sorcorrer class archetype that granted some armor/weapon proficiency (still maxing at expert) would fix this with the martial archetypes still being useful for to pick up combat tricks and bonus HP. Or at least a non-religious way to get to heavy armor expert. I expect some of theese options will appear in the players guide next year.
I have to ask the OP here, what are your goals and what is it you're trying to achieve?
Are you looking for a full Wizard or Sorcerer with decent heavy armor/weapon progression with as little feat investment as possible?
Are you wanting a high defense, melee capabilities, and full casting?
Or are you looking to be able to be on par with someone like a Figher or pure Martial character, but with full spellcasting progression?
I have to know these things so I can figure out what sort of response to give you here.
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Alternately, a fighter/wizard with Dual-Handed Assault, Basic Arcana (Reach Spell or Widen Spell), and Advanced Arcana (Bespell Weapon) might work. Fitting that in around the spellcasting might require some tough decisions, however.After some more consideration, I'm thinking something like this:
Human (versatile) fighter (Str)
...
This actually looks very similar to what I was planning for my magus. Running as a base fighter makes things MUCH easier. You can get first through eighth level magic, pick up a ring of wizardry for spell levels that are important to you, and use your magic primarily for support and trump card spells.
For a Str-based caster/martial, bard might be a decent choice. Not as hard-hitting with weapons or as tanky with armor as the fighter/wizard, but a better caster (up to 10th level occult) with more spells. Partial progression to 15th level:
Human (Half-Elf) bard (enigma muse)
1st- General Training (Armor Proficiency [Medium]; retrain to Toughness at 13th)
2nd- Fighter Dedication, (skill feat)
3rd- Ancestral Paragon (Unconventional Weaponry [Katana]), Expert in Intimidation
4th- Basic Maneuver (Intimidating Strike), Intimidating Prowess
5th- Supernatural Charm, (skill increase)
6th- Opportunist, (skill feat)
7th- Fleet or Incredible Initiative, Master in Intimidation
8th- Advanced Maneuver (Dual-Handed Assault), Battle Cry
9th- Elf Step, (skill increase)
10th- Quickened Casting, (skill feat)
11th- Incredible Initiative or Fleet or Incredible Investiture, (skill increase)
12th- Advanced Maneuver (Shatter Defenses), (skill feat)
13th- Unconventional Expertise (Katana), (skill increase)
14th- Allegro, (skill feat)
15th- Legendary in Intimidation, Scare to Death
...
What about Cleric / Monk? Stats are spread slightly thin but at that point you don't really care as much about your save DCs. Pick up Monk Moves, Fleet, and other movement-boosting options and you can just outposition the enemies instead of trying to build around your melee survivability. It won't matter that your AC is a couple points behind if your enemy has to move twice just to get in range.
There's also Bard / Any, if you pick up the feats for Inspire Defense, Lingering Composition, etc. You can get True Strike on your list pretty easily too, and your composition spells can help even out the numbers a bit. Plus that class has Heroism on their spell list.
And if you want to try a ranged gish, it's hard to go wrong with the Ranger. Dex 14 is easy to get on anyone, and for two feats you can pick up Hunted Shot to make the most of your turn. True Strike and Hunter's Aim plus your casting class's version of Bespell Weapon makes for a neat combo as well, giving you an attack option that's likely to hit and deal pretty solid damage. Play a character with access to Weapon Surge for more damage on that shot, too.
For a Str-based caster/martial, bard might be a decent choice. Not as hard-hitting with weapons or as tanky with armor as the fighter/wizard, but a better caster (up to 10th level occult) with more spells.
A variation, focusing on reach/tripping as well as demoralize:
Human (Versatile) bard (enigma muse)
1st- Adopted Ancestry (Gnome), General Training (Armor Proficiency [Medium]; retrain to Toughness at 13th)
2nd- Fighter Dedication, Titan Wrestler
3rd- Ancestral Paragon (Gnome Weapon Familiarity*), Expert in Intimidation
4th- Basic Maneuver (Intimidating Strike), Intimidating Prowess
5th- Gnome Weapon Innovator, Expert in Athletics
6th- Opportunist, (skill feat)
7th- Fleet or Incredible Initiative, Master in Intimidation
8th- Advanced Maneuver (Knockdown), Battle Cry
9th- Multitalented (Sorcerer [Fey bloodline]), Master in Athletics
10th- Basic Blood Potency (Dangerous Sorcery), (skill feat)
11th- Incredible Initiative or Fleet or Incredible Investiture, (skill increase)
12th- Advanced Blood Potency (Bespell Weapon), (skill feat)
13th- Gnome Weapon Expertise, (skill increase)
14th- Allegro, (skill feat)
15th- Legendary in Intimidation, Scare to Death
...
*- can use a gnome flickmace (with the critical specialization effects at 5th)
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As a side note, the bards above should have a background with Str, Dex, or Cha boosts and start with 16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con or Int, and 16 Cha.
One more variation for the half-elf bard above: Take Multitalented (Rogue Dedication) at 9th and Basic Trickery (You're Next) at 10th. Advanced Trickery (Dread Striker) and Sneak Attacker might be worth looking at, as well (possibly replace Allegro at 14th and take the other at 16th?).
Note that allegro can never target the caster.