Pretty sure that only makes the state of things in the LOWG more likely in your game, not less.
Well, it's possible for an individual aristocrat to be anti-aristocracy, such as if that aristocrat was a beloved PC of an active player.
Everybody's Golarion is going to be a little bit different, and that's okay.
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It's really simple. Golarion obeys the rules of pathfinder only localy, that is where ever you are currently playing. As soon as something comes into play, it necessarily fits into the rules (how else could it be in play?). But when it is not featured, the rules do not apply to it.
Being level 20 and all of the powers and options that characters Have within the rules are meaningless when not part of a game.
That which is outside the current game appears from within the game as background narrative and while PCs never get weaker in the game, they may be much weaker when the appear again, being just at the right level for whatever the game currently needs.
Because really, how else would it be plausible that encounters tend to be level appropriate, 200 year old elves can be level one, someone can go from dying to a dagger stab to surviving being chewed on by a dragon in the scope of a few months. And so on and so on.
No, Golarion clearly is a Kantian world where what appears is determined by who is being played.
A 200 year old elf who has avoided getting into fights might well be 1st level. For most people in the game world, getting into fights is a way to get killed, not to gain power.
As for the rest -- obviously the game is rigged in favor of the player characters.
But the only player characters a GM has to worry about are those who actually played in his campaign, and then only if they have a pre-existing incentive to mess up an adventure path that takes place between the PF1 campaign they retired from and a new PF2 campaign.
The most likely adventure path for that situation is probably Hell's Vengeance after a campaign with very powerful non-evil Chelish adventurers. For most of the other adventure paths, the retired adventurers are likely to agree with or at least accept the goals of the adventurers taking them on and let them play out on their own.
Yeah, the "where did the HV party go" is definitely something worth figuring out and "They dead" is as good a solution as any. I know ours isn't coming back, and were only in it for themselves anyway.
I was thinking more of a PF1 campaign where the Hell's Vengeance AP did not happen at all -- but PF2 assumes that it did, so it would have to happen between the last PF1 campaign and any future PF2 campaign.
And if your retired PF1 party included even a single non-evil Chelish adventurer, you could have a near-epic level party of adventurers with both the incentive and the power to thoroughly mess up the outcome of that adventure path -- so if the war against the Glorious Reclamation ended in a victory by the posited evil party, then the retired adventurers would have to be elsewhere doing something else that is more important to them than getting involved in that war.
The solution I proposed for our group (where my PC was the daughter of a Godclaw Hellknight paladin) was to have my PC named governor of Anchor's End and sent off there with her family, thereby salvaging the canonical situation in Cheliax at the cost of possibly slightly messing up the situation in the Avistani colonies in Arcadia.
There's a few APs where a default disposition for the heroes makes sense to me.
Hell's Vengeance: Dead
Hell's Rebels: Desperately trying to run Kintargo
Strange Aeons: Never coming out of hiding
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Let's examine this (spoilers follow):
Rise of the Runelords: Probably involved with New Thassilon, honestly. Very possibly trying to keep Sorshen honest. Some additional power there just barely matters given Sorshen.
Curse of the Crimson Throne: Busy running Korvosa.
Second Darkness: Honestly? No idea. Possibly died succeeding. somebody has to have done that, playing the averages.
Legacy Of Fire: Probably in Katapesh trying to enact some sort of change (fighting cultural inertia is hard).
Council of Thieves: No idea. Presumably still somewhere in Westcrown...maybe dead during Hell's Vengeance?
Kingmaker: Busy ruling a kingdom.
Serpent's Skull: Probably involved with the stuff in Vidrian somehow (either dying in the revolt, or more likely supporting it and working for the country in question now).
Carrion Crown: Upset that the Whispering Tyrant finally woke up. Probably involved in the fight against him very directly. Thus, very busy.
Jade Regent: In Minkai. I mean, they're doing stuff there, but the relevant part is they aren't around.
Skull and Shackles: Helping rule the pirates of the Shackles...inasmuch as anyone can.
Shattered Star: Honestly? Of all of these, this is the one that probably gets done by a previous group (likely the RotRL PCs).
Reign of Winter: Busy advising Anastasia and working to reform Irrisen and keep it stable. A job of work.
Wrath of the Righteous: Ascended to godhood, or otherwise off-plane fighting terrible horrors. No other explanation suffices.
Mummy's Mask: Possibly dealing with the fallen pyramids still containing monsters. Possibly in prison if they got blamed for things...
Iron Gods: Advising the Black Sovereign and trying to keep the country from descending into complete civil war.
Giantslayer: Probably busy fighting against the Whispering Tyrant's forces.
Hell's Rebels: Helping run Kintargo and trying to curb some of the bad stuff still going on there while keeping the country viable.
Hell's Vengeance: Working for the House of Thrune. They're hardly its only high level agents.
Strange Aeons: As noted, hiding or retired.
Ironfang Invasion: Keeping a close eye on General Azaersi. A very close eye. Also defending Nirmathas (and possibly Molthune) from the Whispering Tyrant.
Ruins of Azlant: Off in Azlant. Again, the relevant bit is 'not around here'.
War For The Crown: Keeping Princess Eutropia on her throne and indulging in intrigue. Probably helping with the military build up to go fight the Whispering Tyrant.
Return of the Runelords: Like the Rise PCs, involved heavily with New Thassilon and Sorshen.
Tyrant's Grasp: Dead. Super, super, dead.
Most of them are involved in powerful positions in specific nations they have reasons to care about. Most nations are already assumed to have several high level people in positions of power. These two facts together mean that those people being former PCs/heroes is just not a big deal from a worldbuilding perspective. The only people you really need to get rid of somehow are the WotR PCs, who are just an order of magnitude more powerful than all the rest.
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Depending on how poorly your party handles kingdom management, Kingmaker may even still be happening.
Wrath of the Righteous: Ascended to godhood, or otherwise off-plane fighting terrible horrors. No other explanation suffices.
My Wrath PC has twins with his wife (a notable NPC). He acquired control over two layers of the Abyss and is thus a massive target to all those who wish to claim them. As a very powerful individual, he has invested fractions of that abyssal control in various unknown low-level heroes through Golarion, so if anyone wants to acquire the layers, they need to collect the whole set. He is living in semi-seclusion deliberately trying to give his children a reasonably normal upbringing given his history and the inherent nature of their mother. He's not adventuring.
I wrote my PC's epilogue for the group. It was... touching.Another PC had a fling with Nocticula, and has taken over her realm. Supports and assists her canonical changes. That PC is going to be the BBEG I use when I take over as DM for our current Shattered Star campaign, in a post-AP frolic. As in, he will soon be dead.
The third PC had some emotional issues with the way things went down and is also mostly retired, raising his brood. He did dabble in events that relate to Ironfang, but they didn't work out so well.
These people are powerful enough to know, or at least suspect, that the new generation of heroes have things covered.
I did always want to try building a party of 20th level characters and running through an adventure path from start to finish.
Iron Gods
Oh, the Torch has gone out and a local VIP went missing trying to fix it. Let's cast some divinations. Ah, he's being tortured by some sort of machine. Scry, buff, teleport. Cast greater restoration on the guy, get the full story. Oh, someone turned off the Torch. Scry on her. Buff, teleport in. Take her nonlethally, dominate her, get all her information.Okay, she's working for a 'god' named Hellion out of Scrapwall. Scry on him? Weird, it didn't work. Well, let's stretch our legs. Windwalk to Scrapwall. Man, these people have it rough. Let's cast miracle to make the land fertile here and provide enough fruits for everyone to at least avoid scurvy. Oh, that pissed off some locals. Subdue them handily, charm person, learn about all the stuff that's going on here. Chain lightning takes out the entirety of the first mob of bad guys. Speak with dead to get the route to Hellion. Waltz in, fight some guys, go underground, sigh. Fools think they can hurt us. Oh, this technology stuff is nifty.
Ah, finally, Hellion. He's in a robot body, so chain lightning again and . . . oh, sh**, he exploded and killed Jim. Breath of life, good to go.
Well, we have a lead to why he was doing this. Something about being pissed off at some people in Starfall. Let's go there.
(Skips adventures 3 and 4, since the hook to go after them is easily missed.)
Oh, there are a lot of bad guys here. This might actually take a while. Let's really quickly scrysassinate the high-level leadership, then come back tomorrow after buying some shocking adamantine weapons to deal with their robots.
Okay then. Five adventures done in a day and a half. Tomorrow we'll mop up the villains here in Starfall, and then we'll take a look at that big crashed spaceship over there.
That was hilarious!
For a lot of our home games a sizeable portion of the party realized they had enough power to do whatever they wanted and promptly retired or left Golarion. Some are in other planes of existence dealing with consequences of their actions. Others decided they'd had enough of dealing with horrors hiding behind every rock and just found a home to live in. Very few are still adventuring.
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Various nations being ruled by parties of 20th-level (after the "Continuing the Campaign" hooks have been resolved)
This is not the assumption the setting is operating under. Paizo are assuming the APs have happened but the 'Continuing The Campaign' adventures have not (indeed, they've taken several 'Continuing The Campaign' seeds and explicitly made them ongoing world issues rather than having been resolved).
So we're talking more like 17th level parties than 20th level ones, which matters. And several APs actually end even lower than that (the PCs in Council of Thieves ends at 13th level, Skull and Shackles ends at 14th level, Carrion Crown ends at 15th level, etc.).
creates a new worldbuilding and lore doozy: it makes certain nations superpowers by nothing more than sheer virtue of having ~4 superpowered heroes at the top of the government. I do not know what Golarion lore sources you are pulling from, but four 20th-level heroes working together is a huge deal, let alone concentrating their efforts on a single nation, let alone multiple 20th-level parties each with their own nation.
You assume that most nations don't already have 17th level or higher people in them. That's a deeply unwarranted assumption. 20th level is rare (but see above for why that's less of a concern), but even a small city-state like Korvosa had an 18th level character in a major position of power to start with (Toff Ornelos, to be specific), and had a 13th level Cleric, the 14th level head of the Sable Guard, and assorted others.
Now, Korvosa definitely gets a power up when it gets the PC group...but compared to any of the other nations in question, Korvosa is tiny. The rest all already had significant numbers of such people.
Korvosa, Ravounel, Minkai, Irrisen, and so on are effectively WMD-holding superpowers, except that those WMDs are also demigods whose uppermost echelons have superpowers and mundane statecraft skills that the common man cannot even begin to fathom.
With the exception of Korvosa (and Ravounel, which didn't exist), they literally all already were. Elvanna was a 20th level Witch over in Irrisen, and had high level minions all over the damn place, just as one example.
Which is to say, you can argue the addition of the PCs as 'nuclear proliferation' of a sort (though given the number of high level people they kill to get there, I'm not sure how valid that is), but in no cases (except Korvosa, which definitely quadrupled its firepower or thereabouts) are they giving 17th+ level characters to a nation that did not already possess multiple such characters.
What is a 20th-level wizard's Society modifier? It can very well be 20 level + 7 Intelligence modifier with apex item + 8 legendary + 35, increasing to +38 for Recall Knowledge with a diadem of intellect.
An example of DC 40 Recall Knowledge for Society is "existence of a long-lost noble heir," simply recalled off the top of the head. Can you imagine an administrator being able to whip out such obscure knowledge off the top of their head, followed by applying Society to actually run the country? Add that to 10th-level spellcasting.
Yes, and? You're acting like high level PCs are the only high level characters existing in universe. Almost all rulers are at least 15th level, and are seldom the highest level people in their nation. This kind of resource is definitely deeply impressive, but it's something all major nations have access to in-setting and always have.
And again, level 20 is not and should not be assumed. Level 17 or so should.
And that is just one wizard, to say nothing of the 20th-level bards, clerics, and so on and so forth in their own positions of power. International policy revolve around the interactions between these demigodly rulers, their mind-blowing mundane skills, and their 10th-level spells.
Again, noting that it should be 17th level and 9th level spells to reflect the APs, Golarion already works like this and always has. There's a reason basically all rulers are at least 15th level you need to be to play in their league.
High level people being around and in positions of power is a well established fact of life in Golarion, and this doesn't actually change that at all.
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Now, Korvosa definitely gets a power up when it gets the PC group...but compared to any of the other nations in question, Korvosa is tiny.
Point of order: when compared with its neighbors, that's not really true. Korvosa with its holdings is more populous and developed than Kaer Maga, more developed than Nirmathas, Ravounel, or Nidal, and about on par in terms of both population and development with Magnimar, the leading power around Nisroch Bay. All these states, as you mention, have high-level magic-users at their disposal and the means to educate more, though Magnimar is the standout here having the adventurer-factory Sandpoint among its holdings.
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Point of order: when compared with its neighbors, that's not really true. Korvosa with its holdings is more populous and developed than Kaer Maga, more developed than Nirmathas, Ravounel, or Nidal, and about on par in terms of both population and development with Magnimar, the leading power around Nisroch Bay. All these states, as you mention, have high-level magic-users at their disposal and the means to educate more, though Magnimar is the standout here having the adventurer-factory Sandpoint among its holdings.
It's absolutely powerful among the City States of Varisia, possibly the largest and most powerful such city state (though Magnimar rivals it). But I'm talking population, which is what seems to lead to large numbers of high level characters, and compared to any full sized nation (and it's the only thing smaller than a full nation that gets a full party of PCs per my analysis above) it is indeed tiny.
I also see no evidence it's more developed than Ravounel, Nirmathas, or Nidal (okay, it's more built up than Nirmathas...that's not how I'd define 'developed' in a world of magic, though).
In fact, let's look at those three and some city stats, shall we?
Kintargo (at 11,900) on its own is smaller than Korvosa (at 18,486), but Korvosa's got no meaningful additional holdings outside the city itself, while Ravounel is a pretty significant swath of territory, including even Vyre (at least in theory) which is a bigger city than Kintargo, and almost Korvosa's size (Vyre's population is 17,300). The two together, ignoring every other place in Ravounel are half again the size of Korvosa. And, of course, there actually are plenty of other communities in Ravounel.
Nidal's capital alone (at 18,900) is larger and more developed than Korvosa (if, admittedly, not a lot larger), but then there's the whole rest of the country.
Nirmathas, the population is more spread out but the capital (at 9,730) is still better than half the size of Korvosa, is listed as one of several cities in the region, and if you think even close to half the population of Nirmathas lives in cities, you haven't been paying attention to Nirmathas. And that's ignoring the 24,000 population of Kraggodan entirely (since they're a whole different group).
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In fact, let's look at those three and some city stats, shall we?
Another point of order: these stats are out of date. I'm away from my books at the moment, but I recall that Kintargo's population is given as 12,700 in the LOWG. I suspect from its portrayals in Re:otR and LOWG, both of which emphasize the Blood Veil plague, that Korvosa's population has fallen, but I don't recall what number, if any, was given in the LOWG.
but Korvosa's got no meaningful additional holdings outside the city itself
Korvosa's holdings include basically all the land west of Janderhoff and east of Ashwood. Again, I don't have the numbers to hand, but I recall working out that this is a little less than half the area of Ravounel. It's also a lot more densely populated. Ravounel at the moment has had five settlements detailed outside Kintargo and Vyre. Cypress Point is the same size as Sandpoint, and Whiterock is somewhat smaller; Acisazi has a population just over 100, and Kitkasitica has less than 100. Deepmar is a prison camp and also has a population in the tens. Everything else is empty wilderness and will remain so unless Volume 3 of Age of Ashes gives more detail. Korvosa, meanwhile, has at least two towns (Palin's Cove and Veldraine) with populations over 1,000 among its holdings, which are more numerous. It and its holdings are also far more industrialized than anything in Ravounel, the economy of which is purely agricultural and extractive.
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Another point of order: these stats are out of date. I'm away from my books at the moment, but I recall that Kintargo's population is given as 12,700 in the LOWG. I suspect from its portrayals in Re:otR and LOWG, both of which emphasize the Blood Veil plague, that Korvosa's population has fallen, but I don't recall what number, if any, was given in the LOWG.
I'm perfectly willing to believe this, but none have changed by more than a couple thousand, meaning they're good enough for what I'm doing there.
Korvosa's holdings include basically all the land west of Janderhoff and east of Ashwood. Again, I don't have the numbers to hand, but I recall working out that this is a little less than half the area of Ravounel. It's also a lot more densely populated. Ravounel at the moment has had five settlements detailed outside Kintargo and Vyre. Cypress Point is the same size as Sandpoint, and Whiterock is somewhat smaller; Acisazi has a population just over 100, and Kitkasitica has less than 100. Deepmar is a prison camp and also has a population in the tens. Everything else is empty wilderness and will remain so unless Volume 3 of Age of Ashes gives more detail. Korvosa, meanwhile, has at least two towns (Palin's Cove and Veldraine) with populations over 1,000 among its holdings, which are more numerous.
Fair enough, I was forgetting how much in the way of holdings Korvosa had. They're still dwarfed by full sized nations like Nidal and Nirmathas but not as much as I was thinking. I suspect Ravounel also seriously outnumbers them once we hear a bit more about the area (indeed, including Vyre they do so already, as I noted above), but again, not as much as I was thinking. Them having four high level people then falls under 'most nations do' much better than I was thinking.
It and its holdings are also far more industrialized than anything in Ravounel, the economy of which is purely agricultural and extractive.
Industrialization has little to do with people's level, and frankly not all that much to do with population (not compared to area, anyway), and is thus not a lot to do with what I'm talking about.
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Elvanna was evil (i.e. a default conflict hook). These higher-level PCs from Reign of Winter, not so much.
Reign of Winter is an AP where Evil PCs can do just fine, thank you very much.
I do not recall Lord Gyr of Absalom having 9th-level spells, or Xerbystes II of Qadira, or Codwin I of Absalom. Are they just screwed compared to those nations who do have parties of rather high-level (usually 18th) heroes heading their government?
Codwin I was of Augustana and a 14th-level Paladin. He's also not relevant anymore; Andoran has a new Supreme Elect.
Andira Marusek. I'm not sure what level she'd be, but she's said to be an experienced general.
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It makes me wonder how the world views a group of PCs who head up to very high levels and pull off some world-saving feats in 2e. Will the annals of history treat them as super-epic heroes who did the impossible, or will they become brushed-aside footnotes in history like the other two dozen parties of heroes who came before them?
Good riddance. Great Man history can get in the sea.
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All metropolises (cities with population of at least 25000) grant access to 8th level spellcasting, and with some special modifiers (Magical, Academic, Holy Site, Magically Attuned or Pious) it can be increased to 9th level. With multiple modfieir, it's possible even for smaller cities. That means that 9th level spellcasters that sell their services are not that uncommon, and there's likely many more that would rather keep their services exclusive. Even if they are not the rulers, they are unlikely to just stay uninvolved when the place where they built their home gets endangered.
I've looked though some books and found many cities with 9th level spellcasting available to the public. This list is surely not complete:
Absalom, Alkenstar, Almas (Andoran), An (Osirion), Augustana (Andoran), Canorate (Molthune), Chesed (Numeria), Chillblight (Irrisen), Egorian (Cheliax), Jaha (Mwangi Expanse), Katheer (Qadira), Korvosa (Varisia), Mzali (Mwangi Expanse), Nantambu (Mwangi Expanse), Nerosyan (Mendev), Oppara (Taldor), Osibu (Mwangi Expanse), Pangolais (Nidal), Ridwan (Nidal), Sothis (Osirion), Totra (Osirion), Westcrown (Cheliax), Whitethrone (Irrisen).
Other Inner Sea metropolises (for most I haven't found the full stats, but some of them surely have access to 9th level spellcasting):
Aspenthar (Thuvia), Ayesh (Qadira), Azir (Rahadoum), Cassomir (Taldor), Daggermark (River Kingdoms), Halgrim (Land of the Linnorm Kings), Hawah (Qadira), Highelm (Five Kings Mountains), Iadara (Kyonin), Isarn (Galt), Jawafeeq (Qadira), Kalsgard (Land of the Linnorm Kings), Katapesh, Katheer (Qadira), Khundurai (Qadira), Manaket (Rahadoum), Mechitar (Geb), Merab (Thuvia), Merev (Qadira), New Stetven (Brevoy), Nithveil (Land of the Linnorm Kings), Port Peril (the Shackles), Quantium (Nex), Sedeq (Qadira), Senghor (Mwangi Expanse), Starfall (Numeria), Sukri (Qadira), Urgir (Hold of Belkzen), Yled (Geb).
Even places like Tamran (Nirmathas), Kaer Maga, Magnimar or Riddleport have access to 8th level spellcasting, despite not being metropolises.
There doesn't seem to be a lack of high-level characters, even if they don't rule countries.
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I've looked though some books and found many cities with 9th level spellcasting available to the public. This list is surely not complete: ... Alkenstar ...
Wait, the city in the middle of a dead-magic desert has 9th level spellcasting? What?
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I've looked though some books and found many cities with 9th level spellcasting available to the public. This list is surely not complete: ... Alkenstar ...Wait, the city in the middle of a dead-magic desert has 9th level spellcasting? What?
I also find it strange, but that's what the city stats given in Pathfinder Module: Wardens of the Reborn Forge say. It gains 9th level spelcasting due to being a metropolis with a holy site of Brigh. I agree it should also get a significant penalty, but alas it does not.
By the way, not all Mana Wastes is a dead magic zone; some of it are primal magic zones. And some areas change unpredictably between dead magic, primal magic and normal magic.
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Even if you assume that, you are actually looking at 18th-level characters, since they earn a level from the final battle and so on. They still have legendary skills beyond most mortal ken, and 9th-level spells.
They become NPCs when the campaign ends, meaning they may or may not gain further levels at that point.
And yes, they remain very powerful.
Those are in the stark minority.
Sure. They still seem worth noting.
A handful of scattered high-level characters are a smaller deal than a concentrated party of much higher-level characters running the whole place.
That really depends on context. In a war between countries, most can probably marshal their high level forces pretty effectively.
Elvanna was evil (i.e. a default conflict hook). These higher-level PCs from Reign of Winter, not so much.
Sure. But that makes the country nicer, rather than more powerful. Which is, in fact, accounted for in the LOWG.
Some rulers being at least 15th? I can see that. All? I do not think so. Whole parties of high-level heroes running the place? I definitely do not think so.
As I address below, the vast majority are at least 14th. But they also aren't any more alone than than the PC parties are. Very rarely are they even the highest level characters in their country (there are several level 15+ people in Osirion, Numeria, and frankly all the other countries with actual books...Osirion, for example, has a 20th level Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge High Priestess of Nethys, while Thuvia has a 20th level Alchemist).
PC groups are a potent addition to a nation's resources, don't get me wrong, but they are hardly a unique one.
I do not recall Lord Gyr of Absalom having 9th-level spells, or Xerbystes II of Qadira, or Codwin I of Absalom. Are they just screwed compared to those nations who do have parties of rather high-level (usually 18th) heroes heading their government?
Uh...literally all of those are 13th to 14th level. That doesn't meaningfully argue against my point.
Let's go through the list of the rest, per PF1:
Andoran: Codwin I (LG Human Paladin 14)
Hold of Belkzen: Grask Uldeth (CE Orc Barbarian 17)
Brevoy: Noleski Surtova (N Human Aristocrat 5/Warrior 3)
Cheliax: Abrogail Thrune (LE Human Aristocrat 2/Sorcerer 16)
Druma: High Prophet Kelldor (LN Human Oracle 15)
Five King Mountains: None listed or statted.
Galt: Citizen Goss (CE Human Mesmerist 13)
Geb: Geb (No stats, but more powerful than Arazni's Wizard 20/Marshal 6)
Irrisen: Elvanna (NE Human Witch 20)
Isger: Hedvend (LE Human Aristocrat 4/Rogue 5)
Jalmeray: Thakar Kharswan (LN Human Monk 14)
Katapesh: The Pactmasters (Unknown levels)
Kyonin: Queen Telandia Edasseril (CG Elf Wizard 15)
Lastwall: Watcher Lord Ulthun II (LG Human Paladin 14)
Land of the Linnorm Kings: Various, mostly varying between 15th and 17th level (the weakest Linnorm King is a 13th level Barbarian...the rest are 15+).
Realm of the Mammoth Lords: No listed ruler, several listed NPCs are very high level (14th to 15th at least)
Mana Wastes: Grand Duchess Trietta Riccia (LN Human Aristocrat 14)
Mediogalti Island: Blood Mistress Jakalyn (LE Human Cleric 9/Red Mantis Assassin 10/Trickster 3)
Mendev: Queen Galfrey (LG Human Paladin 15)
Molthune: Markwin Teldas (LN Aristocrat 4/Cavalier 11)
Mwangi Expanse: No single ruler. Many high level NPCs.
Nex: Council. None statted, but clearly indicated as very powerful casters.
Nidal: Again, not statted but indicated as high level.
Nirmathas: Forest Marshall Weslan Garrick (CG Human Ranger 11)
Numeria: Kevoth-Kul (CN Human Barbarian 15)
Osirion: Ruby Prince Khemet (LN Human Cleric 15)
Qadira: Satrap Xerbystes II (N Human Aristocrat 6/Fighter 8)
Rahadoum: Not statted
Razmiran: Razimir (LE Human Wizard 19)
River Kingdoms: Various of varying levels.
Sargava: Baron Utilinus (LN Human Cleric 10)
The Shackles: Kerdak Bonefist (NE Human Fighter 8/Inner Sea Pirate 10)
Taldor: Stavian III (CN Human Aristocrat 8/Enchanter 4)
Thuvia: None statted, but there is that 20th level Alchemist the whole country is built around...
Ustalav: Prince Aduard Ordranti III (LN Human Aristocrat 3/Fighter 8)
Varisia: No region leader.
Isger, Sargava, and Brevoy have pretty unimpressive rulers (levels 8-10), and Nirmathas's, Ustalav's, and Taldor's aren't super impressive either (levels 11-12), but everyone else whose stats we have is level 13+, with 14+ by far more common (there are only two of level 13...the other 19 or so are 14+). So it looks like I was in fact misremembering...by maybe one level. Most rulers are 14-15 rather than all being 15 as I was remembering. The average is probably 14, since the ones below that are slightly more common than the 20th level ones.
And yes, they would be at notable disadvantages opposing PC groups by themselves...but first, most PCs aren't optimized to oppose them in the social arena (where they probably mostly are fairly optimized, at least in terms of Skills), so barring outright war they'll likely be fine even by themselves. And if it comes to war, as mentioned, they have numerous other resources to call on.
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Yes, yes, Pathfinder is ultimately about catering to power fantasies.
Maybe it shouldn't be?
I mean, consider the shape of the thing. In a storytelling game in which each player pilots a single individual, and great deeds are accomplished, how would one structure this in a way which does not imply "individuals are capable of great deeds"?
I think the important thing to underline is merely "1-4 people can't do everything." But considering how many people are mad they can't get rid of Tar Baphon forever in the last PF1 AP, that might sadly be too far for some.
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I am not so sure about that; it is not as though everything is solved the moment the final battle concludes. The "Continuing the Campaign" section is there for a reason.
And yes, they remain very powerful.
Sure, but we're talking default setting assumptions here. And for those purposes, they probably stop leveling the second they defeat the AP's final boss.
That does not change the fact that a smaller handful of high-level personalities are that much smaller a deal than an actual party of much higher-level heroes, both in war, and in peace. The Age of Lost Omens previously has not had this high a concentration of high-level, coordinated parties previously.
In terms of coordination? Probably not. But that assumes they stay coordinated. That's actually not at all true in my experience. My CotCT party, for example, all know each other and get along okay post-retirement, but given what said retirements were, they are not a coordinated party in a proactive sense. They all have their own concerns.
And another nation secured by its high-level heroes.
I mean, Elvanna was a 20th level Witch and had the loyalty of basically all her jadwiga relatives. She's almost on par with a party of 17th level PCs by herself, and likely has much better logistical support from said relatives catapulting her to a bigger threat than they are, IMO. The PCs are probably real busy dealing with internal matters with very little high level support, and are barely a CR/Level above her as a challenge even all working together and assuming she had no support.
So, yes, technically, but not any better (in a power level sense, anyway) than it was protected by it's Queen previously.
Those are not coordinated parties. Furthermore, these high-level personalities are now coexisting alongside the adventure path heroes, so there are now even more very high-level characters running around.
The PCs almost inevitably kill a fair number of high level people in the course of their adventures. As many as they create? I think that depends on the AP. I know that in Skull and Shackles, for example, they kill at least two 15th level characters as well as an 18th level one, and add only four 14th level ones in exchange.
I'd need to examine each AP closer for total number slain, but if the number's risen, it's sure not by a whole lot. Now, they're more inclined to be Good or Neutral than the people they kill certainly, but the total proliferation of high level characters, while it exists, is hardly overwhelming considering how many there are already.
I did a demographics thread based on the settlement rules a long time ago that makes it pretty clear that there are probably around 1 in 100,000 people on Golarion who are 17th level or higher. Adding a few more isn't a drop in the bucket, but given the number added, it's also not an overwhelmingly high addition either.
The Inner Sea's population is not known, but almost certainly in the 10s of millions. Meaning there are hundreds of people of this level, and slightly more than double that of 15th level or higher. Less than 1000 at 17th level plus, certainly, but more than enough to absorb the 50 or so at most (after seriously lowballing the casualties they inflict) new high level people without radically changing the world in the way you seem to assume.
I mean, by my count most APs involve killing at least four 15th level plus characters (or creatures actively doing stuff in Golarion of equivalent power) and at least a couple of CR 17 or higher.
Some of those characters clearly gained levels during the AP...but not by any means a majority. So this is less there being more high level characters and more maybe a slight swing from 15th level plus towards 17th level plus, and a slightly more notable swing away from Evil.
17th to 20th level, and an actual four-man band of such, is a marked improvement over smaller handfuls of 13th- to 14th-level personalities.
Your list of NPCs now has to coexist with all of the adventure path heroes who have made their mark on the Inner Sea. That is a significant spike in the amount of high-level personalities now enacting their will upon Golarion. It is not as if they are worse at using skills, either, given each party's resident big mental score casters and/or skill monkeys (bards are both).
Sure, they need to coexist...but they already needed to coexist with the hundreds of other characters of that level. A few more (or more accurately a few different ones) doesn't really change that much.
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And another nation secured by its high-level heroes.
What? The Reign of Winter PCs are foreigners to Irrisen, and don't spend more than a few weeks there in the AP. They are 7th-level when they leave it. They are not assumed to have any long-term Irriseni allies. Why in the world would they commit themselves to its defense?
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What? The Reign of Winter PCs are foreigners to Irrisen, and don't spend more than a few weeks there in the AP. They are 7th-level when they leave it. They are not assumed to have any long-term Irriseni allies. Why in the world would they commit themselves to its defense?And another nation secured by its high-level heroes.
1) You're assuming their origins and ties.
2) Because they just unseated its ruler and possibly instilled one? Canonically they did.
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1) You're assuming their origins and ties.So does the AP.
2) Because they just unseated its ruler and possibly instilled one? Canonically they did.They unseated its ruler because she was a mad dog threat to the world that needed to be put down, not necessarily from any affection for Irrisen. And canonically, Baba Yaga installed Anastasia, who makes sense, as she was the closest thing to a daughter she had on hand at the time.
Absalom and Goka's populations are closer to 300,000 actually. And that document only records populations from major cities, so the actual population of Avistan would be higher.
I actually agree with you that the setting doesn't take into account how high level characters would change things well. But as deadmanwalking pointed out, there are already a bunch, so it would be weird if they suddenly made hypothetical PCs have a massive effect on the world when all the other high level characters didn't before.
Also, the creators have directly said that the setting is not suddenly shifting just because it's a new edition. The settlement rules won't be exactly the same but that won't mean the number of high level characters actually changes.
(thx Douglas)
Through an unfortunate blend of happenstance, misinformation, lack of understanding of scale and a dose of hubris, after completing the adventure path the powerful heroes left for another planet and were swallowed by a passing dog. Woof.
Right. Time for another cup of tea. Which AP should we address next?