| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let's say that I am an expert crafting a level 5 magic item worth 160 gp. My work per day is 1 gp. After 4 days I spend 160 gp worth of materials and I have an item worth 160 gp. If I sell it for the "market price", I make no profit and I have spent 4 gp worth of labor. If I set out for another 4 days to reduce my costs by 4gp, I can sell it at market price without losing money. But now I have spent another 4gp worth of labor just to lower the price of materials. I have invested 156 gp in materials and 8 gp of labor, still 4 more than the market price of the item.
If I am a crafter trying to make a living making magic items (or anything using the default crafting rules) I don't see that I have any option other than to charge the market price + my labor for those first 4 days. Am I missing something? Do I make sure I only work on easy stuff far below my level so that I happen to have a few crits and no chances of failure to make up the lost 4 days of work?
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
You would use "Earn an Income" p. 236 which represents doing whatever work is available at a market rate as opposed to "Craft an Item" to make a specific item which you would probably only do for yourself or as a specific commission.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think you have it right - all successes puts you 4 days' worth behind per item, and you need to crit on at roughly 12 day's worth of tasks to come out ahead (assuming you had no failures to put you further behind).
Note that PF2 (unlike 3.x) does not attempt to be an NPC crafter's simulator, for good or ill. It just ensures that crafting is not a PC cheat code.
If you want your labor to add value to your materials, you need to spend more than four days assembling an item. Spend sixteen days reducing your costs by 1gp/day, and you've earned 8 sp/day of work over a twenty day period.
You would use "Earn an Income" p. 236 which represents doing whatever work is available at a market rate as opposed to "Craft an Item" to make a specific item which you would probably only do for yourself or as a specific commission.
Remember that the tasks available in the market may all be below your level, limiting your earning potential.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are a crafter trying to make a living making magic items, as you specified, then you are not an adventurer, and therefore not a PC, and therefore don't use the PC crafting/selling/earning rules... which are all that's in the book. We don't know the details of how NPCs dedicated to their jobs earn money, and we probably won't.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You would use "Earn an Income" p. 236 which represents doing whatever work is available at a market rate as opposed to "Craft an Item" to make a specific item which you would probably only do for yourself or as a specific commission.Remember that the tasks available in the market may all be below your level, limiting your earning potential.
For sure. But if you can't get level 5 work in a market it's going to be quite difficult to find a buyer for the level 5 item you are trying to craft.
True, but crafted goods are portable, whereas available jobs are not. You can take your goods to a larger market every month or two while staying and adventuring near a smaller town.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are a crafter trying to make a living making magic items, as you specified, then you are not an adventurer, and therefore not a PC, and therefore don't use the PC crafting/selling/earning rules... which are all that's in the book. We don't know the details of how NPCs dedicated to their jobs earn money, and we probably won't.
So if my Wizard takes a year or two off of dungeon crawling he is no longer an adventurer? Exactly how many days can you not go on an adventure and not loose your character to NPC status?
True, but crafted goods are portable, whereas available jobs are not. You can take your goods to a larger market every month or two while staying and adventuring near a smaller town.
Fair enough
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want your labor to add value to your materials, you need to spend more than four days assembling an item. Spend sixteen days reducing your costs by 1gp/day, and you've earned 8 sp/day of work over a twenty day period.
That's OP's whole point-- he can earn 8sp/day over 16 days crafting, whereas if he just used the "earn income" rules he'd earn 1gp/day. That's a difference of 2sp/day; multiplied by 16 days that comes to 4gp. No matter how long you spend crafting an item you'll always be 4 days' worth of labor behind.
I believe this was an intentional decision by the devs, to discourage PC's from saying "screw adventuring" and just spending their time crafting instead. (I've seen this happen, in both 3.5 and PF1.)
It makes sense in-universe too-- adventurers likely aren't members of the local guild organizations and don't have access to the network of contacts and relationships needed to negotiate wholesale rates on materials, permission to set up in the marketplace, etc. It stands to reason that a vagabond Wizard or a tomb-raiding Rogue crafting items in their spare time can't compete on price with established, professional local artisans and merchants.
If you are a crafter trying to make a living making magic items, as you specified, then you are not an adventurer, and therefore not a PC, and therefore don't use the PC crafting/selling/earning rules... which are all that's in the book. We don't know the details of how NPCs dedicated to their jobs earn money, and we probably won't.So if my Wizard takes a year or two off of dungeon crawling he is no longer an adventurer? Exactly how many days can you not go on an adventure and not loose your character to NPC status?
Exactly as many as it takes for you to demand the GM let you craft/earn/sell just like the NPCs do now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want your labor to add value to your materials, you need to spend more than four days assembling an item. Spend sixteen days reducing your costs by 1gp/day, and you've earned 8 sp/day of work over a twenty day period.That's OP's whole point-- he can earn 8sp/day over 16 days crafting, whereas if he just used the "earn income" rules he'd earn 1gp/day. That's a difference of 2sp/day; multiplied by 16 days that comes to 4gp. No matter how long you spend crafting an item you'll always be 4 days' worth of labor behind.
I believe this was an intentional decision by the devs, to discourage PC's from saying "screw adventuring" and just spending their time crafting instead. (I've seen this happen, in both 3.5 and PF1.)
It makes sense in-universe too-- adventurers likely aren't members of the local guild organizations and don't have access to the network of contacts and relationships needed to negotiate wholesale rates on materials, permission to set up in the marketplace, etc. It stands to reason that a vagabond Wizard or a tomb-raiding Rogue crafting items in their spare time can't compete on price with established, professional local artisans and merchants.
Except a high level PC will have access to FAR greater resources than any distribution network could offer a NPC crafter. At least not without turning the setting in to Eberron. Odds are they will also have a much better list of contacts.
And I mean, PCs can get hoards of wealth that would allow them to control the market in ways that NPCs never could.
Exactly as many as it takes for you to demand the GM let you craft/earn/sell just like the NPCs do now.If you are a crafter trying to make a living making magic items, as you specified, then you are not an adventurer, and therefore not a PC, and therefore don't use the PC crafting/selling/earning rules... which are all that's in the book. We don't know the details of how NPCs dedicated to their jobs earn money, and we probably won't.So if my Wizard takes a year or two off of dungeon crawling he is no longer an adventurer? Exactly how many days can you not go on an adventure and not loose your character to NPC status?
Well that's a homebrew ruling for your table, but how many days do the rules state you stop counting as as an adventurer and physics works differently for you as you stated?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well that's a homebrew ruling for your table, but how many days do the rules state you stop counting as as an adventurer and physics works differently for you as you stated?Exactly as many as it takes for you to demand the GM let you craft/earn/sell just like the NPCs do now.If you are a crafter trying to make a living making magic items, as you specified, then you are not an adventurer, and therefore not a PC, and therefore don't use the PC crafting/selling/earning rules... which are all that's in the book. We don't know the details of how NPCs dedicated to their jobs earn money, and we probably won't.So if my Wizard takes a year or two off of dungeon crawling he is no longer an adventurer? Exactly how many days can you not go on an adventure and not loose your character to NPC status?
I was being facetious. The rules don't give you the option of being a non-adventurer (for good or ill), even when you're temporarily not adventuring, because it's a game about adventurers. If you want your character to be treated like PF NPCs while remaining PCs, you'll need extensive houserules or a different game.
If you want your labor to add value to your materials, you need to spend more than four days assembling an item. Spend sixteen days reducing your costs by 1gp/day, and you've earned 8 sp/day of work over a twenty day period.That's OP's whole point-- he can earn 8sp/day over 16 days crafting, whereas if he just used the "earn income" rules he'd earn 1gp/day. That's a difference of 2sp/day; multiplied by 16 days that comes to 4gp. No matter how long you spend crafting an item you'll always be 4 days' worth of labor behind.
If you are actually following the Earn Income rules, there is no guarantee he'd be able to earn 1gp/day.
Crafting is worth more the longer you work on one item, and is dependable progress. Earning income is much more variable: earning 5sp/day most months, a few weeks at 1gp/day and the occassional opporutnity for 2 or even 3 gp/day.
Yes, there is a few days' penalty for crafting, but it is in exchange for the dependability of income it provides.
I was being facetious. The rules don't give you the option of being a non-adventurer (for good or ill), even when you're temporarily not adventuring, because it's a game about adventurers. If you want your character to be treated like PF NPCs while remaining PCs, you'll need extensive houserules or a different game.Well that's a homebrew ruling for your table, but how many days do the rules state you stop counting as as an adventurer and physics works differently for you as you stated?Exactly as many as it takes for you to demand the GM let you craft/earn/sell just like the NPCs do now.If you are a crafter trying to make a living making magic items, as you specified, then you are not an adventurer, and therefore not a PC, and therefore don't use the PC crafting/selling/earning rules... which are all that's in the book. We don't know the details of how NPCs dedicated to their jobs earn money, and we probably won't.So if my Wizard takes a year or two off of dungeon crawling he is no longer an adventurer? Exactly how many days can you not go on an adventure and not loose your character to NPC status?
This is ludicrous. PCs and NPCs are all the same creature types and as such should be treated identically in all scenarios. PCs are not special because they are PCs, or vice versa, and any rule that applies to one has to apply to the other or you wind up with a broken, nonsensical mess.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the rules don't include the option of being a non-adventurer, then how do they draw a difference of crafting and market value between an adventurer and non-adventurer character?
This is also very much not a game about adventurers. It is a game that often includes adventurers, but might include none at all. There is more than one urban based campaign and they mostly assume that you are from the area and have a vested interest in staying in the area.
Did my Vigilante not count as a PC simply because he spent his entire career in one city? Does a campaign that takes place entirely in a magical academy simply not count at all?
You seem to have an oddly specific definition of "adventurer". An adventurer is just someone who goes on adventures instead of pursuing a common trade or occupation. Their adventures might lead them across the continent or they might all take place in a single city, but the point is they're someone extraordinary, with extraordinary abilities. Pathfinder is designed to be about those sorts of people, not ordinary farmers or artisans. It's not "Medieval Economy Simulator 2019". If that's the game you want to play then great, but that's not what PF is designed for, so you'll need a lot of houserules.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is ludicrous. PCs and NPCs are all the same creature types and as such should be treated identically in all scenarios. PCs are not special because they are PCs, or vice versa, and any rule that applies to one has to apply to the other or you wind up with a broken, nonsensical mess.
When you GM in PF1, do you build out a full character sheet complete with class levels, feats, skills, etc for every random NPC your players might encounter? Of course you don't, because that would be a pointless waste of time, and wouldn't make sense anyway-- there's no "Bricklayer" or "Beggar" or "Farmer" class. If an NPC commoner is important enough to have stats at all, they're probably represented as a generic "Expert" or "Warrior" or some other handwavy simplification.
The PC's are special: they're the Main Characters of the story. NPCs are supporting characters. The rules provide in-depth details for the Main Characters, but quick rules-of-thumb for everyone else. As it should be.
This is ludicrous. PCs and NPCs are all the same creature types and as such should be treated identically in all scenarios. PCs are not special because they are PCs, or vice versa, and any rule that applies to one has to apply to the other or you wind up with a broken, nonsensical mess.When you GM in PF1, do you build out a full character sheet complete with class levels, feats, skills, etc for every random NPC your players might encounter? Of course you don't, because that would be a pointless waste of time, and wouldn't make sense anyway-- there's no "Bricklayer" or "Beggar" or "Farmer" class. If an NPC commoner is important enough to have stats at all, they're probably represented as a generic "Expert" or "Warrior" or some other handwavy simplification.
The PC's are special: they're the Main Characters of the story. NPCs are supporting characters. The rules provide in-depth details for the Main Characters, but quick rules-of-thumb for everyone else. As it should be.
Actually, I do maintain a pool of fully-statted sheets for such characters.
There's no good reason for the 'main characters' to have the basic laws of the universe work differently for them.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, it sure does make it a pain though when the party takes a trip to Absalom and I need to wheel out my several large filing cabinets containing the 303,900 unique character sheets I need to run that.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just don't get your Urchin #334 mixed up with Orphan #227, or you'll never hear the end of it.
|
What if I own a shop in town, can I sell it higher then? There were abilities that came along later to improve crafting and to improve what percentage we could sell loot for.
I presume this is supposed to account for your shop overheads. You need to pay staff, land rates, operating expenses, etc. so to simplify all these calculations you effectively just sell the item at half price.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The selling at 50% is a simplification. It is a general rule to help resolve sales of items that YOU initiate the purchase. In reality, rules could make it more variable than that, but the question is would having some random calculation between 41%-60% sale price, and a roll to determine if it sells and how many days, etcetera, really improve the game any in its complexity?
You don't HAVE to sell and item for half price, that is your choice, but the other options are effectively to keep it for later, or to discard it. If you instigate a transaction with it, you get less than market value for it.
If someone comes to you, and they instigate a transaction. An NPC comes to the PCs saying, I want to buy a +1 longsword, someone said you might have one. Then, unless they are looking for a deal, you'd probably get full price for that weapon, since 'they' are instigating the transaction, they will be expecting to pay full, or close to full price for it, unless their are extenuating circumstances.
If they come to you looking for the weapon, but you don't have one to spare, and you say no. If you come across one, if they are still in the market for said weapon (if they found one then the deal would likely be off), they will probably pay you full price for it.
When you instigate the transaction. Barring extenuating circumstances, the person buying it is planning on making money off of it. Either they themselves are in the market and are willing to take the risk of grabbing it at half price to sell it some time later for something more like full price. Or maybe they simply know someone well enough that is in the market, that they are willing to take the risk to buy it for half price, knowing their acquaintance will likely pay somewhere between 50-60% to get it, to add to their inventory to sell for full price.
Lets say you have a building with a sign on it. You adventure and find a +1 sword. Sticking it in your building, doesn't mean you get to say, I sell it for full price. Having a storefront wouldn't suddenly give you the other half when you say (today I sell this item). A whole other option that might be worth setting up, as far as game rules might be Investments, and Returns on Investments. If you have a building, and sign, and established business. If you decide to 'give' the +1 sword to your business as an investment, and that store would benefit from it as added stock. Then it would make sense for that business's income role, to potentially benefit from its current value/inventory being raised by the whole market value of the magic sword.
Ok, with all this in mind... The biggest value I see, otherwise, with a magic item (or other very valuable item) you don't want would be that you should be able to effectively barter with someone with it. If you have a +1 longsword, and want a +1 scimitar, and you know someone with a shop who has one for sale. If you come in and offer to trade the +1 longsword for the +1 scimitar, I think it is completely reasonable to consider the shopkeeper would be willing to make a good deal. I'm guessing with the trade in, of roughly equal value, they would make the trade for something like a 10% cash profit. So instead of selling for 50% to some random person, and buying the sword for 100%, meaning you shell out 50% market value for what you want, after the sale. Instead, with the trade, I image you only shelling out some 10%, which would be enough to incentive the trade. (if longswords were in poor demand, they of course could want far more incentive for the trade, but 10% seems like a reasonable amount) In some cases, a broker, for a 10% fee might connect two people who might be willing to do a straight trade, but the broker expecting payment for connecting the two people wanting the mutually beneficial trade.
So again, you don't get only 50% when you sell, because you are an adventurer, you get that amount because you are dictating the time (now) and the specific item being sold. If you buy a warehouse, and store everything you ever find, and make sure it is guarded/safe. I'd be perfectly fine with a player asking me periodically if anyone comes asking for items they have, and being able to sell those specific items for full price. With proper adventure actions, they might even be able to manage to increase the 'street-need' for items they have in inventory, to increase the number of things they could sell like that for full price. But then they aren't dictating the sale, they are doing things to influence the market to bring people to them who will want to initiate the sales.
There is a feat that allows someone to 'work' a day, to reduce the price of a item down by a (income) roll by negotiating for best price in the market. I'd be perfectly fine with someone spending a day 'upselling'. Thereby taking an item that is reasonable to sell, and selling it for 50% of price + a day (or days if they spend multiple days) income roll results, based on your salesmanship. Just like the discounting items was limited to down to 50% of the market value. The upselling your item you instigate the sale in, would likely also max at 100% market value for the item.
So if you want to sell the +1 sword, and you have Lore (magic items sales), you could make an income roll and determine how many days of searching for a buyer it would take to find a buyer willing to pay full price. Say you are an Expert as such sales skill, assuming you are in a large enough market to sustain such a sale, you could sell the +1 longsword for 17.5gp relatively quickly. But putting your salesmanship on show, you can spend 5 days working on finding the right market, and find a buyer for the sword, who will be willing to pay 27.5 by a successful income check. After another four day (9 days total) you'd potentially have found someone who will pay 17.5+2x9=35.5gp or a total of 100% market, i.e. 35gp for the sword. so spending 9 days scouring the city for a buyer might net you finally a final sale at full price. The GM might decide it leads you to needing to travel to a nearby city perhaps to make delivery, but I'd make the time frame be consistent with sale time, so if it takes 9 days, per the example above, after 7 days, they get a lead on a buyer two days away whom would be willing to pay full price.
But yes, personally, I wish that you got to include the first four days of work as part of your income/labor earning towards completing the items in general. Especially for anything you have made before. It is easier to imagine that the first time you ever made a particular item, it might take some extra time to complete an item.