So let me say, I generally like this edition. I am, for first time ever, excited to play a barbarian.
However, I am in heart always a Transmuter. And back when I first switched from 3,5 to Pathfinder, I was really sad to see Transmutation as a school receive such a huge nerf bat (not just to Polymorph spells, but also losing a lot of spells to other schools and weakening of remaining spells, while giving a fairly weak power given that Enhancement bonuses were ridiculously frequent in PF1).
And now, again. Lets start with Cantrips: there is one Transmutation cantrip available, Sigil. Even for RP purposes, it is of minimal value. I mean, I don't ask for much - why couldn't Prestidigitation be a Transmutation cantrip?
Then, our initial Focus spell. Okay, I've been convinced, it can be useful sometimes due to tightness of the math. Although I'd still rate it weaker than most other Focus spells, because to use it, you still need to have someone invest in those skills, or know you will be a target of one of those two saves within next turn. If it had longer time to be used, then I'd see it a bit better, but then it would feel more like Abjuration power.
Aaaand then we hit the advanced Focus spell, Shifting Form ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=535 ). I mean, okay, it provides you some flexiblity... But, just how useful is it?
* Extra speed sounds nice until you realise there are 2! Transmutation 1st level spells that do the same thing better, and lets be fair, you're gonna have at least one of those two prepared.
* Climb and Swim speed : okay, this is actually useful sometimes
* Darkvision : hmmm... Sure, for some. For others who have Darkvision by default, useless. Also, most times better solvable by Light
* Pair of claws for d8 damage? As a 4th level spell? What?
* Scent 60 ft... Hm, maybe, sometimes.
In the end, sure, some of these benefits can be really nice but very situational... And then I compare it to Druids 1st level Focus, Wild Morph ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=480 ). Okay, that one partially keyes off other Feats, but still, it is a 1st level power that scales, providing more and better effects.
So, in the end... Why does Paizo hate Transmuters / Transmutation school of magic? I mean, in PF1 they weren't even close to worst offenders as far as Wizards go.
(please don't bring in Haste / Slow in this discussion; those have been nerfed, rightly so although I think Haste a bit too limited now)
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In the end, sure, some of these benefits can be really nice but very situational...
So, this constitutes “hate” in your eyes? “Nice, but situational” = hate ... yeesh.
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* Extra speed sounds nice until you realise there are 2! Transmutation 1st level spells that do the same thing better, and lets be fair, you're gonna have at least one of those two prepared.
* Climb and Swim speed : okay, this is actually useful sometimes
* Darkvision : hmmm... Sure, for some. For others who have Darkvision by default, useless. Also, most times better solvable by Light
* Pair of claws for d8 damage? As a 4th level spell? What?
* Scent 60 ft... Hm, maybe, sometimes.
I'm not sure of your logic there on the speed boost. I'd much rather spend a renewable resource on something like that than burn spells.
As for the claws... those claws are really good. They're better than any martial one handed weapons, as they're agile AND finesse AND d8. Those weapon qualities usually cap weapons at d6.
Add a set of hand wraps with the appropriate runes and they're magical, +1 to hit and 2d8 damage.
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Cantrip is... a minor issue, IMO. It doesn't really matter what school your cantrips are. Sure its kind of waste to have sigil eating a cantrip slot, but in 6 months or so, I doubt it will even be an issue as more products emerge.
Keep in mind specialization no longer has a cost of any kind.
I dunno, infinite graffiti seems pretty strong.
In all seriousness, yeah, it kind of sucks, but like Voss said, there will probably be more transmutation cantrips in future products. You still have 5 other cantrips to choose from, so it's not a massively big deal.
Keep in mind that combat maneuvers are now based off of athletics, so the focus power can be really strong if you have someone specializing in them.
Shifting Form is 1 action, so you still have enough time to reap benefits from it same round as casting. Climb, Swim, and Speed all have plenty of time to move, darkvision and scent comes with enough time to aim spells, and class come with enough time to wade into melee (assuming you have the dex and handwraps to do so). Although I don't think you are trained in claws RAW, so you might need monk MC to take full advantage of it.
Physical boost is also 1 action, and both can recharge with 10 minutes rather than an hour. And can be recharged in combat if you have a familiar.
Also, while light handles darkness from spells of a lower level than your highest, higher level castings of the darkness spell still leave you better off with darkvison on demand because you can still see creatures even if they are concealed. Which is niche, but campaigns and arcs dealing with certain undead or the darklands or certain evil gods tend to run into darkness.
I think I will houserule Prestidigitation as Transmutation, I mean why not?
"Universal" Magic is BS concept anyways, IMHO, especially when it is so rarely actually used for anything.
I think it really stems from when Specialists actually were cut off from casting Opposed Schools, wanting to keep certain functionality always available, but without that restriction I don't see the rationale personally.
Not that that is really critically impactful flaw of the Transmuter School Specialization.
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Prestidigitation is Evocation... That's, um, a mighty weird decision. I'd rather had it kept as Universal...
So, this constitutes “hate” in your eyes? “Nice, but situational” = hate ... yeesh.
Like how you focused on one quote within the long series of steps why I think Paizo doesn't like Transmuters. 7/5 would read you again.
I'm not sure of your logic there on the speed boost. I'd much rather spend a renewable resource on something like that than burn spells.
One of the spells give you +10 speed for the whole day.
Anyway, sure, it can be nice to have it as an option. As can Darkvision, if you don't have it already. Personally, I find that Climb/Swim speed is the best thing by far.
for the claws... those claws are really good. They're better than any martial one handed weapons, as they're agile AND finesse AND d8. Those weapon qualities usually cap weapons at d6.
Add a set of hand wraps with the appropriate runes and they're magical, +1 to hit and 2d8 damage.
Are they really good? I mean, sure, at 8th level they're not terrible but as you level, they fall behind significantly. I'm not asking to scale the same as other more focused claw-providing powers but something would've been nice. And no, magic items are not really an answer because they a) require investment and b) the same can be applied to other, similar powers.
For those asking, yes, Wizards are trained with claws - Wizards are trained in unarmed strikes, but it never advances to Expert.
Cantrip is... a minor issue, IMO. It doesn't really matter what school your cantrips are. Sure its kind of waste to have sigil eating a cantrip slot, but in 6 months or so, I doubt it will even be an issue as more products emerge.Keep in mind specialization no longer has a cost of any kind.
It has opportunity cost of not specialising in some other school.
Anyway, let's see. I am not as confident Transmutation will receive new cantrips that soon, or even when it does that they will be at all useable.
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Considering the role transmuters play in paizo’s most well played adventure I would say “no” - they really don’t
What they noticed is that far too many spells say in transmutation and conjuration including some that didn’t make sense to. There is a podcast discussion where it was mentioned that seemingly every spell made by a freelancer towards the end ended up in transmutation
I think an important part of the OP post is the use of “our” as if they themselves are a transmuter. There is a lot of attachment there that suggests missing that loads of spells have got a much needed power down and conjuration has lost spells as well. It is not just transmutation spells
The cantrip thing is fair but I don’t think it makes too much difference other than, as mentioned, it taking up a slot. And one weaker than average cantrip is not evidence of hating an entire school of magic
Huh, I overlooked Prestigitation isnt' even Universal, but is Evocation.
That's just bizarre, pretty much Errata territory IMHO. Definitely should be Transmutation.
But anyways, even if Prestigiation should be Transmutation, the situation with single Transmutation Cantrip (Sigil) has no significant impact on over-all situation of Transmuter Specialist. And even if they are somehow below the curve, that doesn't translate to "Paizo hating Transmuters". Really that is such childish and egotistical take, all it does is discredit that poster as incapable of stepping back to make constructive and informative analysis that is actually valuable to other people. I think the over-all effectiveness of Transmutation spells is such that Transmuters get alot of value out of just the extra slots, independent of Focus abilities. And deciding you don't care so much for Focus abilities allows focusing on actual spellcasting instead of trying to leverage Focus with special tricks.
If they hate a class, it's the poor, poor, over encumbered alchemist... At least the Transmuter GETS Sigil. :P
This reads more like edition change shellshock. Transmutation was one of the most overbearing schools of one of the most overbearing classes in PF1. If it didn't feel somewhat less beefy it'd be a failure on Paizo's part.
*sigh* Hardly. And frankly, I'm very annoyed that people here didn't bother reading that I mentioned that Transmutation spells were removed in 3.5>PF1 change.
Transmuter powers in PF1 were already garbarge; it was always better to just specialise in some other school. Transmutation spells are available to everyone, after all.
I'm specifically not complaining about the nerf to Haste and Slow. They deserved it.
What they noticed is that far too many spells say in transmutation and conjuration including some that didn’t make sense to. There is a podcast discussion where it was mentioned that seemingly every spell made by a freelancer towards the end ended up in transmutation
??? I haven't played PF1 in a few years now, but I seem to remember Transmutation spells outside the core set being generally very small, situational stuff.
This is compared to monsters Conjuration and Evocation were. Especially Evocation seem to be moving away from being blasty school to being do-everything school.
I think an important part of the OP post is the use of “our” as if they themselves are a transmuter. There is a lot of attachment there that suggests missing that loads of spells have got a much needed power down and conjuration has lost spells as well. It is not just transmutation spells
At least I am open about my attachments; we are all human, pretty much all of us have biases of some sort. I know where my bias lies, and yet, I still don't want to play Transmuter because the powers are nowhere near as impressive as pretty much any of the other school powers.
For the record, I love my Wizards, specifically Transmuters, enjoy Druids, and hate Evocation school (infamous in my groups for never having a Fireball) and I detest Paladins.
Transmuter powers in pf1 were garbage? You are talking about the school powers right? Like physical enhancement, which have you a free scaling floating enhancement bonus to strength, dex or con that lasted all day. Because I actually think that one was quite stronk.
Yeah, it sounded powerful to me too. But then you realise the type is the exact same as the one items provide, which were plentiful and cheap. Also, the amount given was also pretty low.
Transmuter powers in pf1 were garbage? You are talking about the school powers right? Like physical enhancement, which have you a free scaling floating enhancement bonus to strength, dex or con that lasted all day. Because I actually think that one was quite stronk.Yeah, it sounded powerful to me too. But then you realise the type is the exact same as the one items provide, which were plentiful and cheap. Also, the amount given was also pretty low.
They are not plentiful and cheap in every game
And the boost was free so could be in additionAnd comes online earlier than those items are found and purchased
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On the spell Disproportions it is definitely what the designers have said. But the example they keep using is moving healing to necromancy from conjuration which doesn’t effect wizards anyway
But it is on one of the many podcasts about 2E but unfortunately I can’t tell you which one
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As to the bias point the only reason it is worth calling out is the framing of your question makes it seem like an opinion of passion rather than reason - which early views especially with no play experience are likely to be
(It could well be reasoned by claiming a company hates a class does not give off that vibe)
That said you do often need to be sensationalist to get responses on forums like this. I have had many questions ignored because they weren’t framed as “tell me why this isn’t broken!” or the like.
So it worked !
Oh, I guess if you were playing in some weird setting where belts of incredible dexterity were cheap and plentiful I can see why you'd think it was weak. 4,000 gold pieces at level 5 is a pretty significant expense in most games I've been in, though.
Also the comment on that power being weak sounds like the comment of a level 10 entry character rather than playing up from level 1 when you can’t have those items for a long time and when you do it is to one stat. And for a wizard is would be intelligence...
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Does Paizo hate Transmuters? Yes.
And why? A Transmuter killed their fathers.
Yeah, okay, for awhile there you could have +2 Dex or +2 Con for "free". From levels 5 to about at most 10 at which point you had more than enough money to have the enhacement Belts.
And no, they don't stack because the bonus was explicitly Enhacement type. It also wouldn't stack with Bull Strength and similar spells.
In general, I dislike these small numerical bonuses, I'd much rather have a cool effect.
I'm just hoping they'll add more powers later on, so we have a choice.
As a general note, I don't mind them balancing things; I fully accept that some things need to be done. Hence why I try to compare it to other magic schools and/or other primary casters rather than complaints overall.
I really think you're underestimating the value of an extra 4000 gold pieces. Yeah, it's not a huge amount in the overall life of a character, but it's a lot more significant than you're making it out to be.
At 6th level it's 1/4 of your expected wealth.
Except as a Wizard, chances are you picked up a Craft Wondrous Items and essentially reduced the price to 2k.
However, when you say you dislike the numerical bonuses, that I can get behind, at least. Still I'm pretty sure it's a case of boring but practical.
Yup. Ha well. :) Let's see what comes in future.
I really think you're underestimating the value of an extra 4000 gold pieces. Yeah, it's not a huge amount in the overall life of a character, but it's a lot more significant than you're making it out to be.
At 6th level it's 1/4 of your expected wealth.Except as a Wizard, chances are you picked up a Craft Wondrous Items and essentially reduced the price to 2k.
However, when you say you dislike the numerical bonuses, that I can get behind, at least. Still I'm pretty sure it's a case of boring but practical.Yup. Ha well. :) Let's see what comes in future.
This is a gameplay issue
If you get loads of downtime then sure . But even at half it is GP you don’t have to spend
Also 1 of your 3 feats that has no “direct” use. Some people don’t always pick up that feat. I have two full spellcasters in my current group where there is a weekly clock (Hells Rebels) so definite downtime for the first three books up to level 9. 11 feats between the two of them and not one item creation
I also have listened to a mummy’s mask podcast. They are at the end of book 2 and I think less than two weeks has passed and they haven’t had a spare moment
So, yes, if your game allows loads of downtime then I can see why you would undervalue this power