Wounded and taking damage while dying.

[FLite]

Page 459: taking damage while dying:

"If you take damage whole you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition by one... I'd you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value. "

Does that mean if you have wounded 1, and are reduced to 0, you go to dying 2, and then if you take any further damage, you add 2 more and go to dead?

[Shadowfoot]

Looks like it's easy to coup de grâce a dying enemy who has come back from the brink already once that day.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

FLite wrote:

Page 459: taking damage while dying:

"If you take damage whole you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition by one... I'd you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value. "

Does that mean if you have wounded 1, and are reduced to 0, you go to dying 2, and then if you take any further damage, you add 2 more and go to dead?

That is correct. This is where heropoints are most likely going to be spent.

[RicoTheBold]

FLite wrote:

Page 459: taking damage while dying:

"If you take damage whole you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition by one... I'd you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value. "

Does that mean if you have wounded 1, and are reduced to 0, you go to dying 2, and then if you take any further damage, you add 2 more and go to dead?

Annoyingly, the text of the Wounded condition in the rulebook does not explicitly say it applies any time you "increase" your dying condition (it did in the 1.6 playtest, and it does on the GM screen). It only says it's added when you "gain" the dying condition. Then there's that extra little warning you found in the "taking damage while dying" section...

When I asked Mark Seifter on a marketing-approved question/spoiler stream, he indicated that yes, wounded value always gets added, but it was in a rapid-fire segment so it would totally be reasonable if he came back with a more nuanced answer on this.

[Cydeth]

I read that (off your quote only) as saying that you figure out your current dying value, then add your Wounded value to see if you die. I could look at my book, but that'd take more time than I have right now.

[Bashkinator]

What about failed Recovery Checks? Should we also add wounded value?

[Thewms]

Bashkinator wrote:

What about failed Recovery Checks? Should we also add wounded value?

I would like to echo this question.

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

So maybe I an not understanding what you saying above but this how read it...

Core Rule Book page 459 wrote:

Taking Damage while Dying

If you take damage while you already have the dying
condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by
2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your
own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition,
remember to add the value of your wounded condition to
your dying value.

So you only ever increase the dying condition by 1 or 2 if it is a critical if you have the dying condition.

To determine if your are dead you you look at the dying condition if it equals 4 (5 if you have Diehard) then you are dead

Core Rule Book 460 wrote:

Dying
You are bleeding out or otherwise at death’s door. While
you have this condition, you are unconscious. Dying
always includes a value. If this value ever reaches dying
4, you die. If you’re dying, you must attempt a recovery
check at the start of your turn each round to determine
whether you get better or worse.

But if you are up and fighting but have the would condition and you get dropped to zero hit points your gain dying of 1 + wounded condition.

Core Rule book page 460 wrote:

Wounded
You have been seriously injured during a fight. Anytime
you lose the dying condition, you become wounded
1 if you didn’t already have the wounded condition. If
you already have the wounded condition, your wounded
condition value instead increases by 1. If you gain the
dying condition while wounded, increase the dying
condition’s value by your wounded value. The wounded
condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points
to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full
Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

So while you have dying condition and you take damage I believe it is increased by only 1 or 2...

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

Opps forgot recovery checks..yes a failure or critical failure can kill you...1 or 2 respectively but it does nor say anything about adding wounded...so I believe no.

Core Rule book page 459 wrote:

Recovery Checks
When you’re dying, at the start of each of your turns, you
must attempt a flat check with a DC equal to 10 + your
current dying value to see if you get better or worse. This
is called a recovery check. The effects of this check are
as follows.
Critical Success Your dying value is reduced by 2.
Success Your dying value is reduced by 1.
Failure Your dying value increases by 1.
Critical Failure Your dying value increases by 2.

This how I am playing it at least :)

[Azurespark]

The way I understand it is, if you are at dying 1, and get attacked, your dying value increases by 1 for a total of 2. Now if you also have wounded 1, that would be added to your dying value for a total of 3. And you would be treated as if you had dying 3 for the purposes of determining when you die.

If you have dying 1, wounded 1, and you get attacked, you don't increase the value by 2 unless that attack was a crit.

[Thewms]

Azurespark wrote:

The way I understand it is, if you are at dying 1, and get attacked, your dying value increases by 1 for a total of 2. Now if you also have wounded 1, that would be added to your dying value for a total of 3. And you would be treated as if you had dying 3 for the purposes of determining when you die.

If you have dying 1, wounded 1, and you get attacked, you don't increase the value by 2 unless that attack was a crit.

That is definitely a valid interpretation. Though I am still unsure what the intended interpretation is, especially given the fact that the GM screen says to add the wounded condition to any increases to you dying value.

A dev weigh-in of course would be nice.

[Azurespark]

Thewms wrote:

Azurespark wrote:

The way I understand it is, if you are at dying 1, and get attacked, your dying value increases by 1 for a total of 2. Now if you also have wounded 1, that would be added to your dying value for a total of 3. And you would be treated as if you had dying 3 for the purposes of determining when you die.

If you have dying 1, wounded 1, and you get attacked, you don't increase the value by 2 unless that attack was a crit.

That is definitely a valid interpretation. Though I am still unsure what the intended interpretation is, especially given the fact that the GM screen says to add the wounded condition to any increases to you dying value.

A dev weigh-in of course would be nice.

That is odd. Maybe it's just a case of poor wording. The wounded condition itself says that any time you lose the dying condition, you increase your wounded value by 1.

But yes, a dev answer would be good.

[Melism]

Hi everyone! I was making some quick reference charts for my players and had same problem. After reading some threads:
If you have a wounded condition and:
- Gain dying condition: add the wounded value to dying condition
- Take damage while dying: add the wounded value to dying condition increment
- Fail the recovery check: DON'T add the wounded value to dying condition increment

I'm not entirely sure but can't find other clarification!

[Ascalaphus]

I feel like the Wounded and Taking Damage While Dying sections don't quite gel. The Wounded section just tells you when to add Wounded to Dying: when you first become Dying.

The TDWD section "reminds" you to apply this rule, but it doesn't apply when you're already dying.

I think the reminder text should actually be in the main Dying definition, not in the TDWD section.

[Thewms]

Melism wrote:

- Fail the recovery check: DON'T add the wounded value to dying condition increment

Where did you read this or where was it clarified?

[Melism]

Thewms wrote:

Melism wrote:

- Fail the recovery check: DON'T add the wounded value to dying condition increment

Where did you read this or where was it clarified?

I couldn't find a certain rule for this but in the appropriate sections of wounded (and gain dying) and taking damages while dying it is explicitly written that you add the wounded value, it is not in the recovery check. This is just my interpretation and I'd like a confirmation!

For what Aschalapus said, I've supposed it was just a reminder too but the premise of the entire section of TDWD is that you already have the dying condition, therefore it most probably refers to the increase of the dying condition and not the moment you gain it.

[Thewms]

The new PF2 Demo lists conditions and the entry for wounded may give insight to RAI.

"Wounded: You have been badly hurt. Wounded always includes a value. Whenever you fall unconscious, you add your wounded value to your dying value. Whenever you return from unconsciousness, add 1 to your wounded value."

[Aswaarg]

Thewms wrote:

The new PF2 Demo lists conditions and the entry for wounded may give insight to RAI.

"Wounded: You have been badly hurt. Wounded always includes a value. Whenever you fall unconscious, you add your wounded value to your dying value. Whenever you return from unconsciousness, add 1 to your wounded value."

I think the RAI is clear, but should be carefull aplying that, because being asleep can be considererd as unconscious, and I don´t think you have to gain dying condition if you are wounded and asleep...

Core book, page 460, under Unconsciuos:

"If you’re unconscious and have more than 1 Hit Point
(typically because you are asleep or unconscious due to
an effect),.."

I have being aplying wounded adding it to the the dying condition when you have it (not when you gain more levels of it). So wounded triggers when you get from 0 dying to X dying, but not triggers when dying is more than 0.

[Vdamato]

FLite wrote:

Page 459: taking damage while dying:

"If you take damage whole you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition by one... I'd you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value. "

Does that mean if you have wounded 1, and are reduced to 0, you go to dying 2, and then if you take any further damage, you add 2 more and go to dead?

To help other people that have the same doubt that i had >>> mark seifter 04/01/2020 on discord: "Anytime that you gain any amount of dying, you also add in your wounded. It's very dangerous be wounded, so keep your hero points handy!"

It makes sense because the wounded condition dosen't go away because you are dying. If you are wounded and dying, and you receive another attack is far worse than when you are not wounded first. Is a kind of common sense.

I hope that this helps!

[Ravingdork]

Wounded: If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value.

It is my understanding that you only applied wounded when you first dropped to dying, not if your dying value fluctuates.

You apply the wounded value when you gain the dying condition. You can't gain dying when already dying. Your dying value merely increases, which isn't the same thing.

The reminder on page 459 is reminding us of a non-existent rule, and so either exists in error, or is simply badly worded and being misinterpreted.

I respect Mark's interpretation of the rules, but I dont believe RAW supports it. For it to match his intent, he will need to release errata for the text I quoted above so that it indicates that it triggers when you gain the dying condition or when your dying condition increases.

[Squiggit]

That interpretation would also create a scenario where even with Wounded 1, you automatically die if you take any damage while dying or fail a single recovery check, which seems like a really huge lethality spike from wounded 0.

It'd also conversely make Wounded 2 kind of less of a big deal, since you'd pretty much be in the exact same spot.

Generally I feel like if gamedev comments on how something is supposed to work about their own game it makes sense to take that at face value, but this ruling seems to outright contradict the rules in the book and significantly increases the lethality of the game.

[Ascalaphus]

That Mark Seifter quote isn't just out of context, it's got no context. How can I possibly look up what else he said or what sentence he said it in response to? If you're going to quote an authority, make it so people can look up the quote themselves.

My suspicion is that he meant "any time you gain the Dying condition at any value", which would cover the pretty common situation of gaining the Dying condition at value 2 because of a critical hit. It's a very small difference in wording from "gain any amount of dying", but more precise and more sensible. It's easy to say the imprecise thing in a fast-flowing conversation in chat.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Taking Damage While Dying CRB.459 wrote:

If you take damage while you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by 2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value.

GM Screen: Death and Dying-Wounded wrote:

Any time you gain the dying condition or increase it for any reason, add your wounded value to the amount you gain or increase your dying value.

Coupled with Mark's alleged statement it could very well be correct.

One things to note from the first quote, it is specifically in regards to taking damage while you have the dying state. So perhaps the GMscreen is incorrect and the intent is the extra dying increase only comes from when you are struck while dying?

I think it is more likely that the interpretation of Mark's comment is correct though.

And it doesn't make Wounded 2 any less scary btw, it still means you need to succeed a recovery check more times. There are also character elements that can adjust the success tier of a recovery roll as well as adjust the initial dying value. -shrugs-

Whether it should be that hard or not, it is how I have run it so far as that is what I referenced the most on the GM screen -laughs-

[Ravingdork]

The rules are in conflict with one another. It could never be correct without errata to remove the erroneous passage(s).

[Liegence]

“you take damage while you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by 2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value.“

I don’t read this as ever implying you add again your wounded value; it’s just a reminder to add wounded to your dying value if applicable.

As in: your dying and I hit you, so add another 1 since it’s not a crit. So that’s 1 for dying 1 for the additional hit and oh yea plus your wounded amount.

If the GM screen was to be interpreted as saying if you increase your dying value for any reason add your wounded value to the dying value gained, then it’d technically be recursive because adding your wounded value is a reason for increasing your dying value, and any reason adds again your wounded value to your dying condition, which is an increase for a reason and therefore you add your wounded value etc so if you go from wounded to dying you always just die (because you immediately add your wounded condition to the value, which is an increase for a reason).

But I think it’s safe to say the GM screen isn’t RAW it’s just shorthand for easy reference; the Core is RAW

[TwilightKnight]

I think this is the 2E equivalent of coup de grace from 1E. If you are dying and someone hits you, generally it is because they are trying to finish you off. Given that you are flat-footed, helpless, and your AC is at least affected by an effective Dexterity of 0, even if it isn't specially state in the rules that the hit is automatically a critical hit, given your significantly reduced AC, it probably is anyway.

So, if you are Dying 1 and are struck by the crit, you would become Dying 3. If that's it, you are good for one more turn, or at least until your own if you fail the recovery check. If OTOH you already have Wounded 1, for the purposes of comparing your condition to death (and only for that comparison), add the Wounded value to your Dying 3 and you are dead. See reasonable and it jives with what is printed in the CRB.

[Liegence]

“Jibes” like the nautical term

Sorry, it’s one of my pet peeves I can’t help myself.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

A necro I know, but this is the rules forum and people tend to use it (and google search results) to clarify things.

The beginner box wounded condition also specifically calls out adding the wounded value
"Any time you gain or increase the dying condition while wounded, increase the dying condition’s value by your wounded value" - back inside cover of the players book

The condition cards also state "gain the dying condition or increase it" in regards to wounded's impact on dying values.

So currently it stands:
- 5 references to it being whenever dying is applied/increased (crb damage section, bb rules reference, gm screen, condition cards and mark seifter)
- 2 references to it being on gained (crb and beginner box)

I am going with wounded is intentionally dangerous personally.

Also as stated before wounded 2 and wounded 3 still have a place as the PC will still frequently need to make multiple saves to avoid death if healing can't be applied fast, it is a ticking clock even if healing can, and diehard still exists to get death to be dying 5. (Plus doomed and its impact since wounded 2 and doomed 1 makes going down death for someone without diehard).

[Errenor]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

So currently it stands:

- 5 references to it being whenever dying is applied/increased (crb damage section, bb rules reference, gm screen, condition cards and mark seifter)

"If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value." from the description of the condition itself is enough for me.

I read the "If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value" from the Dying section only and definitely as a reminder to include Wounded value once. Natural language strikes again!
Don't know what "bb rules reference" is. GM screen, condition cards and unknown to me, most probably very old and obsolete quote of Mark Seifter are irrelevant (with all due respect to Mark).

But. I just ran a game which gives a boon Grand Finale, which gives 20 temporary HP when you are dying 2 or greater, plus +2 circumstance bonus to Performance checks, and a +1 circumstance bonus to Fortitude saves, for the next 10 minutes. And I'm puzzled what the authors wanted to make here. Are temp HPs supposed to remove Dying? If yes, do they remove Unconscious? If no to both questions, how temp HPs work for you while you are dying and what's to do with the Performance checks bonus while dying?

[Bigdaddyjug]

Errenor wrote:

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

So currently it stands:

- 5 references to it being whenever dying is applied/increased (crb damage section, bb rules reference, gm screen, condition cards and mark seifter)

"If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value." from the description of the condition itself is enough for me.

I read the "If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value" from the Dying section only and definitely as a reminder to include Wounded value once. Natural language strikes again!
Don't know what "bb rules reference" is. GM screen, condition cards and unknown to me, most probably very old and obsolete quote of Mark Seifter are irrelevant (with all due respect to Mark).

But. I just ran a game which gives a boon Grand Finale, which gives 20 temporary HP when you are dying 2 or greater, plus +2 circumstance bonus to Performance checks, and a +1 circumstance bonus to Fortitude saves, for the next 10 minutes. And I'm puzzled what the authors wanted to make here. Are temp HPs supposed to remove Dying? If yes, do they remove Unconscious? If no to both questions, how temp HPs work for you while you are dying and what's to do with the Performance checks bonus while dying?

We're really happy that it's enough for you. The rest of us, however, are more interested in the RAW/RAI of it.

[Errenor]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

We're really happy that it's enough for you. The rest of us, however, are more interested in the RAW/RAI of it.

Well, you are lucky, as most (or all?) RAW of it is mentioned in my post and what I considered irrelevant is definitely not RAW. No, any gm screens, cards and quotes of Mark (unless they are in an errata) aren't RAW. RAI is a bit more tricky, but the only contradicting thing I see is that reading of the Dying section where someone thinks that that sentence means to add wounded value each time. Which is a wrong reading of natural language and not RAI as I see it.

Are you even more happy now?

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

The fact that this section is titled, "Taking Damage While Dying," I don't think there can be a lot of ambiguity about the intent that Wounded affects both when you gain and when you increase the Dying condition...

Taking Damage While Dying p.459 wrote:

If you take damage while you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by 2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value.

That said, I have been quite happy until now ignoring this part of the Wounded condition. I don't think whatever player behaviour it is intended to curb has been a problem at my table (the party always treats the Wounded condition asap and tries to heal people up from 0 same round) and I don't feel like adding lethality to a death spiral would improve our experience much.

[Guntermench]

Looking through Mark's comments on his Discord right now and it does seem like he meant it gets added every time.

Quote:

Any time you gain any amount of dying, you also add in your wounded. It's very dangerous to be wounded, so keep your hero points handy!

Then

Quote:

Interestingly it looks like the final wording of it is vaguer than the original. I no longer see the place where it clearly states to add wounded every time.

Then

Quote:

Oh no here it is

"If you take damage while you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by 2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value."

[Errenor]

Guntermench wrote:

Looking through Mark's comments on his Discord right now and it does seem like he meant it gets added every time.

Quote:

Any time you gain any amount of dying, you also add in your wounded. It's very dangerous to be wounded, so keep your hero points handy!

Then

Quote:

Interestingly it looks like the final wording of it is vaguer than the original. I no longer see the place where it clearly states to add wounded every time.

Then

Quote:

Oh no here it is

"If you take damage while you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by 2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value."

Out of context (like I am) it still even not clear if it really meant 'each time you increase dying value (even when you already have it)'. The first quote still could mean 'gain'=" no dying/dying 0 -> dying X". In the second 'every time'="every time you 'gain'[see above]". And the third is just the rules quote which is ambiguous as I said.

I'm not saying he 100% didn't mean that harsher rules variant, I'm saying it still is not obvious.

[Baarogue]

I find a mere two sentence section immediately after the rules about being knocked out and dying, unambiguously headed "Taking Damage while Dying" reminding us to add our wounded value to be quite clear that it is not talking about gaining the dying condition initially

[Bigdaddyjug]

Errenor wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

We're really happy that it's enough for you. The rest of us, however, are more interested in the RAW/RAI of it.

Well, you are lucky, as most (or all?) RAW of it is mentioned in my post and what I considered irrelevant is definitely not RAW. No, any gm screens, cards and quotes of Mark (unless they are in an errata) aren't RAW. RAI is a bit more tricky, but the only contradicting thing I see is that reading of the Dying section where someone thinks that that sentence means to add wounded value each time. Which is a wrong reading of natural language and not RAI as I see it.

Are you even more happy now?

Seeing as the GM screens literally copy directly from the rulebooks, they most certainly qualify as RAW. So I'd say the RAW and RAI of it is still quite ambiguous.

[Guntermench]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

We're really happy that it's enough for you. The rest of us, however, are more interested in the RAW/RAI of it.

Well, you are lucky, as most (or all?) RAW of it is mentioned in my post and what I considered irrelevant is definitely not RAW. No, any gm screens, cards and quotes of Mark (unless they are in an errata) aren't RAW. RAI is a bit more tricky, but the only contradicting thing I see is that reading of the Dying section where someone thinks that that sentence means to add wounded value each time. Which is a wrong reading of natural language and not RAI as I see it.

Are you even more happy now?

Seeing as the GM screens literally copy directly from the rulebooks, they most certainly qualify as RAW. So I'd say the RAW and RAI of it is still quite ambiguous.

The GM Screen is actually different from the CRB if you compare the Wounded condition.

[Ascalaphus]

Guntermench wrote:

Looking through Mark's comments on his Discord right now and it does seem like he meant it gets added every time.

Quote:

Any time you gain any amount of dying, you also add in your wounded. It's very dangerous to be wounded, so keep your hero points handy!

Then

Quote:

Interestingly it looks like the final wording of it is vaguer than the original. I no longer see the place where it clearly states to add wounded every time.

Then

Quote:

Oh no here it is

"If you take damage while you already have the dying condition, increase your dying condition value by 1, or by 2 if the damage came from an attacker’s critical hit or your own critical failure. If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value."

Mostly it sounds like he's searching deep in his memory and relying more on re-quoting what is printing. He's not saying "it's totally clear what all the devs meant and it was this". He's saying "well apparently we wrote that in the end".

[Errenor]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Seeing as the GM screens literally copy directly from the rulebooks, they most certainly qualify as RAW. So I'd say the RAW and RAI of it is still quite ambiguous.

Only rulebooks qualify as RAW. (And campaign rules for PFS I guess.) If cards, screens and anything accessory directly copy from them - good. If no - rulebooks still take precedence and are the only thing that matters for RAW.

[Captain Morgan]

GM screens also abbreviate rules from the rulebook. For example, the frightened condition in the CRB explicitly mentions that AC is one of the DCs that Frightened reduces, but that clarification was cut for space from the screen. (I've seen this trip up the newer players of the Glass Cannon podcast quite a bit.)

[Ascalaphus]

I still think it's an error where it says to "remember" doing something that was never stated in the first place.

It also just doesn't seem reasonable. The numbers don't make sense.

Suppose you're Wounded 1. Then you get knocked down to 0HP so become Dying 2. Then you take a point of damage. Now if you were really supposed to add your Wounded value on top of adding 1 point, the rules might as well say "you're dead unless you have Diehard". Because then it's always going to be at least 2 extra Dying.

I think the "remember" sentence is vestigial from some earlier version of the rules. If you look at the paragraph just above the Taking Damage While Dying section, that's the section on becoming Dying and what if you were already Wounded. I think this sentence belonged somewhere in that paragraph but got displaced during editing.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

"The rule was put in the wrong section" is certainly a new type of RAI, but then it happens to agree with what I've been doing, anyway, so who am I to complain?

And certainly, yes, adding Wounded even when you're already Dying and take a hit definitely magnifies the danger of the Wounded condition and accelerates the death spiral. I can't actually say that I believe this was definitely unintended, that a person who is mortally wounded, then knocked out again, and beaten on while down isn't meant to go directly from Dying 2 to 4 unless they passed a save between, but it's one lever to control lethality to a degree. Admittedly, this lever only controls the lethality of being struck while already down, so might never even be noticed if the party is diligent about recovery or the foes never strike fallen enemies, but it's there.

On the other hand, I did have a player deride the Diehard feat as functionally useless because of how rarely it would come up, but that's another story.

[Errenor]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Admittedly, this lever only controls the lethality of being struck while already down,

Nope. By this interpretation wounded is added even when you just fail flat check. So Wounded 1, dying 2 -flat check failed -> dying 2+1+1=4=dead.

[Baarogue]

Errenor wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Admittedly, this lever only controls the lethality of being struck while already down,

Nope. By this interpretation wounded is added even when you just fail flat check. So Wounded 1, dying 2 -flat check failed -> dying 2+1+1=4=dead.

What "interpretation?" The rule in question is a short section that describes specifically, not vaguely, what to do ONLY when "taking damage while dying." It's not a blanket "when increasing your dying condition" rule. It's between the section that describes what to do when a character is reduced to 0 HP and gains the dying condition initially, and the section that describes recovery checks, all on the same page

And while this makes wounded deadlier than some players (including myself, who had missed that rule until this thread) believed, it's not as bad as it looks. It's mostly only a threat to players who get knocked down (dying 1-2), get up again (wounded 1), and then knocked down AGAIN (dying 2-3 AND wounded 1) in the same fight or without taking time to get the wounded condition removed between battles, and have GMs shitty enough to focus fire their downed PC. So yeah, save a hero point if you're that guy

[Errenor]

Baarogue wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Admittedly, this lever only controls the lethality of being struck while already down,

Nope. By this interpretation wounded is added even when you just fail flat check. So Wounded 1, dying 2 -flat check failed -> dying 2+1+1=4=dead.

What "interpretation?" The rule in question is a short section that describes specifically, not vaguely, what to do ONLY when "taking damage while dying." ...

The rule in question is the text of the conditions, which has only this:

Wounded wrote:

You have been seriously injured. If you lose the dying condition and do not already have the wounded condition, you become wounded 1. If you already have the wounded condition when you lose the dying condition, your wounded condition value increases by 1. If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value.

The wounded condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

and this:

Dying wrote:

You are bleeding out or otherwise at death’s door. While you have this condition, you are unconscious . Dying always includes a value, and if it ever reaches dying 4, you die. If you’re dying, you must attempt a recovery check at the start of your turn each round to determine whether you get better or worse. Your dying condition increases by 1 if you take damage while dying, or by 2 if you take damage from an enemy’s critical hit or a critical failure on your save.

If you lose the dying condition by succeeding at a recovery check and are still at 0 Hit Points, you remain unconscious, but you can wake up as described in that condition. You lose the dying condition automatically and wake up if you ever have 1 Hit Point or more. Any time you lose the dying condition, you gain the wounded 1 condition, or increase your wounded condition value by 1 if you already have that condition.

Do you see here anything that points to gaining additional dying value while already dying and being wounded at the same time? There's nothing here. And it must be here to be unambiguous. Note "Your dying condition increases by 1 <...> or by 2" in 'dying' condition, nothing about any additions.

If you think that the phrase in the wounded condition includes this, then it must work the same if you just fail flat check. You can't have one without the other. 'Dying' sections in the text around p.459 mostly copy the text in the conditions, so no mentions of this 'additional dying from wounded when already dying' rule. And only that one sentence in 'Taking damage...' could be interpreted like that. I interpret it as just a reminder that the wounded value must be included in the dying value once, from the gaining 'dying' condition event.
What I can guarantee you is that all the groups which I personally play in and all connected with them would be and are considering all this discussion as a stupid rules-lawyering and the proposed change to the dying rules (because nobody plays it like that and doesn't even consider it working like that) completely unfounded and unreasonable. For the record, I'm not a permanent or even frequent GM in any of them.
And I'm saying that even from the rules-lawyering perspective this whole thing is extremely unconvincing.

[Baarogue]

Looks like a classic 'specific over general' sitch to me

[Bigdaddyjug]

Errenor wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Admittedly, this lever only controls the lethality of being struck while already down,

Nope. By this interpretation wounded is added even when you just fail flat check. So Wounded 1, dying 2 -flat check failed -> dying 2+1+1=4=dead.

What "interpretation?" The rule in question is a short section that describes specifically, not vaguely, what to do ONLY when "taking damage while dying." ...

The rule in question is the text of the conditions, which has only this:

Wounded wrote:

You have been seriously injured. If you lose the dying condition and do not already have the wounded condition, you become wounded 1. If you already have the wounded condition when you lose the dying condition, your wounded condition value increases by 1. If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value.

The wounded condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

and this:

Dying wrote:

You are bleeding out or otherwise at death’s door. While you have this condition, you are unconscious . Dying always includes a value, and if it ever reaches dying 4, you die. If you’re dying, you must attempt a recovery check at the start of your turn each round to determine whether you get better or worse. Your dying condition increases by 1 if you take damage while dying, or by 2 if you take damage from an enemy’s critical hit or a critical failure on your save.

If you lose the dying condition by succeeding at a recovery check and are still at 0 Hit Points, you remain unconscious, but you can wake up as described in that condition. You lose the dying condition automatically and wake up if you ever have 1 Hit Point or more. Any time you lose the dying condition, you gain the wounded 1 condition, or increase your wounded condition value by 1 if you already have that condition.

Do you...

Except there's a specific rule from "Taking Damage while Dying" that says to add your wounded value to your dying value. How is that at all ambiguous?

[Guntermench]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I still think it's an error where it says to "remember" doing something that was never stated in the first place.

It also just doesn't seem reasonable. The numbers don't make sense.

Suppose you're Wounded 1. Then you get knocked down to 0HP so become Dying 2. Then you take a point of damage. Now if you were really supposed to add your Wounded value on top of adding 1 point, the rules might as well say "you're dead unless you have Diehard". Because then it's always going to be at least 2 extra Dying.

I think the "remember" sentence is vestigial from some earlier version of the rules. If you look at the paragraph just above the Taking Damage While Dying section, that's the section on becoming Dying and what if you were already Wounded. I think this sentence belonged somewhere in that paragraph but got displaced during editing.

Given it seems every other location says to add wounded any time your dying increases I feel like it's most likely that wounded was supposed to say what it does on the GM screen and no one caught that it doesn't in the CRB for whatever reason. This would make the "remember" make sense.

[Squiggit]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

I am going with wounded is intentionally dangerous personally.

I mean sure, but the way it ramps up is weirdly steep. A character with wounded 0 has a ~21% chance to die from failed recovery checks over usually three rounds (but a minimum of two), which then jumps all the way to 55% at wounded 1 on a single check(and then barely increases at all to 60% at wounded 2). Applying it the other way has us go ~21%>40%>60%, and rounds go from usually 3 to usually 2 to 1, which makes each level of wounded have a noticeable jump and means wounded 2 actually matters a lot.

That's a significant jump in lethality, especially for something that is literally never mentioned in the CRB anywhere (even after multiple rounds of errata).

[Guntermench]

It certainly makes options related to dying like Bounce Back more attractive, makes Orc Ferocity a double edged sword too.