It's already kinda covered in the rules, too.CRB, p. 320 (Legal Clothing, Formal):
"Formal wear is designed for a specific social function, such as a wedding or funeral, and commonly differs from planet to planet and even from culture to culture. Lacking the proper formal wear at a social event can cause you to take a penalty of up to –4 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise checks at the function, as determined by the GM."In how many terrestrial formal settings are swords and guns appropriate? My ex-wife and I had swords and sabers at our wedding, but it was a military ceremony held off-post at her church; and you'll find guns at some weddings here in the U.S. as well as India, the Balkans, and parts of the Arab world. But many American weddings would bar a guest who was packing.
Or at least impose a –4 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise checks. ;)
But --
As we see here on the forums, it strikes some people deep and shakes them to the core to even consider that the trillions* of planets and moons in the Pact World's galaxy might have both permissive and restrictive societies, regardless of the actual variation in real life.In my case it's probably just insecurity and inadequacy, dunno about everyone else! :D
(*I am assuming an average of 10+ planets and moons per star in their galaxy -- we have about 200 in our real life Sol system here in the Milky Way, plus about a thousand known or suspected dwarf planets at the moment and a whole lotta asteroids and comets.)
Ummm, to clarify the Pact Worlds in like 10 planets. Not trillions.
The rest of the galaxy hast been detailed much...yet.
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Ummm, to clarify the Pact Worlds in like 10 planets. Not trillions.
The rest of the galaxy hast been detailed much...yet.
And some moons like Liavara's Arkanen, too. First to achieve what Liavara didn't -- full Pact World status. :D
Though as I pointed out in that same comment, our own real life solar system has over two hundred moons and planets, about a thousand known or suspected dwarf planets (see the frequently updated list by Caltech's Mike Brown, who discovered Eris). And that's not counting almost eight hundred thousand known asteroids and more comets than you can trope together and shake a shtick at!
Anyhow --
Most of our arguments above are the classic Canadian-American "good guy with a gun" script and don't leave room for, say, variations in culture between Absalom Station and Verces' Skydock.
Several of us are arguing that the setting demands 24/7 Hollywood Wild West 'rulez' for accoutrement (even though carrying a firearm openly in the Old West of our actual history would get you shot dead by law enforcement in more than one city just as fast as carrying a cell phone in some urban zones today -- they were not as lax as we are now).
And a lot of our Starfinder adventure paths (e.g., Dead Suns and Against the Aeon Throne) and Starfinder Society scenarios DO take us outside the Pact Worlds, meaning a lot more of that cultural variation.
So I think my comment stands about some of us being trapped in modern tropes and suffering an inability to distinguish between the acceptable gun etiquette on Akiton (anything goes, esp. in Arl) and meeting with the green dragon Urvosk on Castrovel (be POLITE, his lawyers are even more chokingly deadly than his breath weapon!).
But to each their own, and may you GM in peace. :)
I'm not saying there shouldn't be variation in the acceptability of openly carrying weapons within cultures and planets. Though I do think armor, especially with environmental protections, would be generally accepted even if considered "odd". However, within the Pact Worlds (which is where most of the cultures the players interact with are) I believe Starfinder Society members would be allowed to walk around with their weapons, assuming they didn't menace or intimidate people. This would have more to do with the reputation of the Starfinders and courtesy extended to them.
Having played through Deadsuns, while we do go outside the Pact worlds the cultures we are exposed to are technology undeveloped (in comparison) or virtually dead. At least the two major ones I'm thinking of are. And the in the case of the first one, my group did initially have hostilities until we proved that we weren't bad guys like the Devourer cultists who made it there first.
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Love that AP --
Without adding spoilers, think of a certain "traffic stop" for an example of a starfaring tech culture (with a lot of its own hubris!).
And I think that you're probably on target, Claxon. At least for the parts of the Pact Worlds where Starfinders usually go, thanks to both the Starstone and to two and a half centuries of the Silent War with the Veskarium (which ended less than thirty years ago due to the threat posed by the Swarm).
I do think the Stewards will take an interest in players who stomp around Jatembe Park in powered armor. But like you I also think -- as long as Starfinders have a good name in the Pact Worlds -- that local authorities, the Stewards, and local hires of the Skyfire Legion probably won't harass Starfinders who bear sidearms, or weapons that use the AbadarCorp Defender friend-or-foe modifications.
(Though that's one of the nice things about certain light armors like Second Skin and Vesk Brigandine -- you can wear them under appropriate garb for black tie events. And I think that some light armors like Clearweave for light armor or Ceremonial Armor for heavy armor are easier to "dress up" for bodyguard events at social galas.)
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Pantshandshake --
Agreed on the need to negotiate settings!
And you're probably right, the old west probably isn't relevant to SF settings like Starfinder or TV's old Firefly series. Though I loved the riff on the latter for "Fugitive on the Red Planet," and played the filk of the Jayne song when I ran it. :D
My own characters also wear at least a Second Skin under normal clothes.
But do you think the corporate security types of Absalom Station's Blue Tower corporate district in the Ring would not bat an eye at you tromping in wearing power armor for a meeting with an executive? Esp. if you had weaponry that could puncture a pressure wall? That's not the way I usually see people on centuries-old stations acting, and may represent table variation.
"Paris massacre would have been 'much different' if people had guns."
If people don't feel safe, they will arm themselves.
Also, the PACT worlds were at war a few decades ago. We are still finding a lot of WWII weapons in basements, so I expect quite a big amount of weaponry scattered all over the place.
I've played at least half of SFS modules, and I remember having seen the Stewards only once (far less than Abadar Corp actually). In my opinion, they are just overwhelmed and unable to maintain a correct level of order, and paramilitary organisations like the Starfinder Society or Abadar Corp are giving a hand... and following their own agendas.
Also, during SFS modules, I've been attacked countless times in the street. In my opinion, the PACT worlds are in a very bad state. Some nations try to maintain security, but many fail at it (if they even try).
I think Israel is a good example of how you should feel in the PACT worlds. There is a central government, and most of people basic needs are met (food, water, education, law), but you cross tons of armed people in the street and even war vehicles, there are frequent isolated events and sometimes a rocket or bomb killing dozens of innocents.
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Fun thought:
If someone starts trying to paint the Starfinders as a terrorist or nefarious anti-Pact Worlds organization and Venture Captain Arvin tells local Starfinders "Don't look threatening in Absalom Station" (with the risk of losing a secondary objective)...
How many Starfinders will sacrifice that second point of Fame just to avoid an existentialist crisis? :D
(EDIT: Since I think some might be reading me amiss, do note I'm not saying that Starfinders shouldn't have at least a holdout. What I am trying to say, and failing at, is that depending on the scenario "Sometimes it's Wild West, sometimes it's James Bond.")
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looks at ten foot pole
Nope. Not long enough. Don't go there.
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Pantshandshake --
That makes perfect sense for a character like that! Does not mean that you might not face situations where it means either "split the party" or "commit a faux pas," but as a player you are thinking through what makes sense from that character's viewpoint, AND ways to mitigate things.
Mr. Johnson lives. ;)
(And as I said above a couple of times, the Pact Worlds HAVE been on a war footing for a couple of centuries -- I like SuperBidi's analogy with a modern day country.)
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I mean, as much as there's no reason for my soldier to be wearing PA (By the by, it's currently a Laborer Frame with tank treads, I don't clomp, I zoom.) in a executive board meeting, there's also zero reason for a soldier to even be there in the first place. Soldiers aren't going to help you diplomancy your way into a higher pay scale, or help the grueling contract negotiations.
That is very self limiting. You can impress a prospective employer without diplomacy. For instance the prospective employer wants to here about your tactical philosophy or your knowledge of small arms, or the best way to set explosive......all fall into the soldier's expertise. A clever GM could find ways to make you useful in non-combat situations.
If my soldier is there, it's because he needs to protect something or kill something. Ergo, he needs his toys. If he doesn't need to protect or kill something, he can wait in the ship, or at the Starfinder HQ, or at a bar that caters to people with guns.
Or your soldier needs to be there, because the prospective employers wants to meet the entire team in person in a bathhouse, while in a communal bathing pool. You really gonna tell your teammates that you refuse to go because you can't have armor and guns in the bathhouse?
If instead, we're going to have combat situations on the way to, from, and during the executive meeting... then why are you taking away our guns and armor? Did you on purpose put us into a "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" situation? Why would you do that? That's not fun for the table.
Why would I do that? To challenge the players ability to adapt, improvise and overcome varied challenges.
As for not being fun.. I have run numerous bar fights, using nothing but fists, improvised weapons and the occasional garnish knife swiped from behind the bar. My players love these non firearm - non/ minimal armor encounters.
On that point, we have free planetwide digital communications. Nobody has to meet anyone in person, ever. If your NPCs don't want to be around some wildcards whose idea of a sidearm is a slightly smaller grenade launcher, they can USE THE PHONE. Or send a fax to the Starfinders, detailing a mission they want done, and we'll take it off the job board. Or our Mr. Johnson will tell us there's a gig for us.
If the NPCs wish to meet you face to face then you will do it on their terms.
It becomes even less of an option for players that are Starfinders, as you can be ordered to go meet with the client under their terms. Refuse? Out of the Starfinders for you.
I mean, I, personally, as a human in front of a computer, can see the logic with the gun controls, and such. But I made a character built around weapons, if my GM decides that at level 8 we're going to have to start worrying about what we carry and where, I'm going to flat out tell the table that my character will wait until the stupid talky bits are done, or the GM can whip up some NPCs to try and take my toys away.
Its too bad you limit yourself to being one dimensional. Its also unfortunate that you can not envision systems, planets, worlds, space stations, etc.... that wish to have restrictions on weapons and armor. Clearly you would struggle mightily at my table and with my regular players.
However I also understand my table is not for everybody.
Good gaming to you.
I mean, I'm happy for Hawk and his group that it works out. When we're not in rules forum, I default to "Is it working for your group? Fantastic, tell your friends so more people play Starfinder."
For me on a personal level, I just want to play the game I read about in the books I bought, not 15% pathfinder, 10% call of cthulhu, 20% shadowrun, just a touch of warhammer fantasy and 40k, and a sprinkling of Star Wars dumped into my Starfinder game. The faster a GM starts making big-huge sweeping changes, the faster I get to a point where I start saying "I don't know how this universe works, it's not fun for me if I have to second guess every credit I spend or every feat I take."
Particularly when so many people (not throwing stones, in this case I mean specific people that generally show up when I play) can't even get the actual Starfinder rules right.
Sorry I was typing my previous post. Thanks for the well wishes. I wish you the same.
I make sure my players know how the world works, the world is consistent. My players don't second guess themselves any more than they would in a system done by the book.
And when I make a mistake as a GM, I fix it. I am human a screw up all the time. My players never pay the price for my errors.
I am guilty of botching a rule from time to time. Again it will never cost the players.
Oh, not throwing stones at you, Hawk. I know we've butted heads a time or two, just like everyone else, down in the rules forum, just like everyone else on these boards, but this... this isn't that.
I play in an AD&D 2E campaign that's been ongoing, in one incarnation or another, for almost 30 years. Now, I wasn't there when it began, I'll likely not be there when it ends, and there's been 5 gms all sharing this one world and maybe 40-50 players.
It's amazing, it's a work of art, and I believe the GMs are mutants or aliens or robots or robot aliens for being able to keep everything straight.
But its to the point now where even if a new person wanted to play it, they can't, because it would take months (after they learned all the actual rules) to learn the mountain of house rules.
I see that, and I see my Starfinder GM saying "Does this make sense to you guys? Yes? Well, not me, I'm changing it." Once you do that enough, we're playing KriegsmanFinder, and maybe its a great game, but I came to your house because I like Starfinder, and those little hot dogs your wife makes.
Oh absolutely knew you were not throwing stones at me. No worries. I was just volunteering that I screw up the rules from time to time.
I have my current campaign which started as WFRP, then to D&D 3e in KoK, then 2 Pathfinder and now to Starfinder with the same characters transforming as they traversed multiple planes of existence for the last 25 years, all in pursuit of a single BBEG. Encompassing dozens of players, playing hundreds of characters (all of which are somewhere in some fashion in my Starfinder world waiting to be discover and played).
A great thanks to my wife and daughter who both hand write session notes that then get compiled in a word doc. There must be over a 100 pads of patter in the house with session notes. My daughter has been a great curator of knowledge and consistency.
New player's have never had to learn the rules to start straight away no matter what system we where playing.
Newbies just had to tell me what they wanted to do and I took it from there. Eases the newbie in and helps me getting a better grip on the rules. To this date my wife has never read a rulebook. She just plays and picks it up as she goes.
Maybe you would have fun at our table, maybe not. Not for a lack of us trying though.
Oh and for the little hotdogs.....my wife is a vegetarian so might not be those.
Although that's not to say I wouldn't make them. I am the lone carnivore in the house. LOL!
Here's the thing.
The game is balanced around the idea that people have their abilities available at all times, or at the very least usually.
The setting DOESN"T have easy anti magic areas, anti tech areas, or supernatural suppression collars.
Which means that if you have people regularly without their equipment you've skewed power in favor of people that aren't as reliant on weapons.
If you then add in options that take power away from people using supernatural abilities, you've again tipped the balance towards niche opens that don't use either.
There's nothing wrong with doing that, especially in a home game, but for SFS that kind of tinkering is more house rule than ruling.
Here's the thing.
The game is balanced around the idea that people have their abilities available at all times, or at the very least usually.
The setting DOESN"T have easy anti magic areas, anti tech areas, or supernatural suppression collars.
Which means that if you have people regularly without their equipment you've skewed power in favor of people that aren't as reliant on weapons.
If you then add in options that take power away from people using supernatural abilities, you've again tipped the balance towards niche opens that don't use either.
There's nothing wrong with doing that, especially in a home game, but for SFS that kind of tinkering is more house rule than ruling.
Agree 100% about balance. And most of the time and at the very least usually they do.
The setting is still very sparse and it was even more so when the game came out. There was almost no source material.
My players had questions that had to be answered. Also we have yet to set foot in the Pact Worlds. My players have been running around the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies.
My supernatural folks have been "peace knotted" 1 time in the 100's of encounters that we have played.
Not all encounter's lead to combat. We do a lot of role playing. Much more than combat. So a meeting with dignitaries who demand you have no weapons or armor is common place and no big deal.
Most of the player's dirty work takes place on hostile planets with full gear.
When they are on the Nexus they do not wander around in combat gear. No one does. Nor are supernatural PCs "peace knotted" but they are expected to abide by the laws and have those abilities holstered.
When they land on the space port on Aya they Angarians kindly ask then to leave their weapons on the ship. Its not a problem. They go about their business without issue.
I just don't understand the hand wringing over a small fraction of places in the galaxy having strict laws. It applies to everyone.
Nothing has been unbalanced.
Must be me. I just don't see the problems that you others see. Its just does not come up in our game.
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People in this thread seem to be complaining reality is unrealistic. Yes, there are places where the police will stop you for having a stick. (had that happen) But there are also places where having military grade weapons just means it's the start of hunting season (also been there. Ahh college...)
Try to remember the pact worlds is just getting over an invasion from the swarm. And the veskarium. Which means you have a LOT of veterans running around, all of whom spent most of their lives carrying a weapon around.
You also have things like magitech portals, drift ships, which means you could be attacked anywhere, at any time, without notice.
On top of THAT you have magitec 3d printers. So anyone that wants to cause some trouble can just pour in some UPBs and get their yosemite sam on.
So does this means society MUST be Arizona levels of gun portage? No.
But it definitely means that it MIGHT.
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/thinks
My last Bombadier soldier (AP campaign) was an elven military procurements and development lawyer whose outside work in Qabarat and elsewhere eventually caused him to give up the mask and go Forlorn.
Lemme find his bio:
"[blank] was born in Sovyrian on Castrovel. He studied law and languages at Qabarat University, then took a commission as a Marine JAG in the Sovyrian High Council's Navy. He spent several decades in the Sovyrian Navy, then several years as a corporate lawyer and fixer. He joined the Sunrise Maiden crew on Castrovel."
He had both street clothing and formal wear and Second Skin, and carried a sidearm instead of his scattergun and AbadarCorp spellthrower squad machine gun on the streets of Eox, but geared up when he went to the wild. He didn't bother to pick up an heavy armor until we ran across some Golemforged Plating III during play.
But I am probably playing him, and Starfinder, wrong. :D
(I'm former military -- I have trouble playing a soldier who doesn't keep his heavier gear in the armory except when deployed... or who doesn't carry his full kit when he is!)
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Anyhow, I think the proper etiquette varies by situation and that there's latitude for a lot of variation. And I think aspects of the game design reflect that (mind, my last published RPG game design credit was a quarter century ago, and I don't know the good folk at Paizo -- I just like to buy and play their stuff).
So, even though this is a general settings discussion, I'll quote RAW below to show ways that dress affects NPC interactions. Note that at least one Starfinder Society encounter rewards players for fitting into the crowd as well, though I won't mention the quest or scenario.
Manufacturers - AbadarCorp
Starfinder Armory p. 55
AbadarCorp’s Defender line of ranged weaponry includes a built-in friend-or-foe protocol... A Defender weapon’s list initially includes juvenile sentient creatures and recognized law enforcement officials as friends.
...
When you openly carry a Defender weapon, law enforcement officers might react more positively toward you. This response is likely in situations where your weapons are an issue, especially when you carry no other obvious armaments or when you allow an officer to modify the protocol to protect potential targets. The GM can grant you up to a +2 circumstance bonus to checks to interact with law enforcement officers when your carrying a Defender weapon is applicable. This bonus can apply to other characters in similar circumstances, such as the bodyguards of an icon added as friends to your weapon’s protocol.
Clothing, Party
Source Starfinder Armory p. 129
Party clothes are usually designed for occasions where everyday or professional wear won’t do but where formal wear is too fancy. Usually, party wear takes the form of special costumes or unusual dress that one must wear to avoid looking out of place at the engagement. Lacking the proper party wear at a social event can cause you to take a penalty of up to –4 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise checks at the function, as determined by the GM.
Clothing, Formal
Starfinder Core Rulebook p. 230
Formal wear is designed for a specific social function, such as a wedding or funeral, and commonly differs from planet to planet and even from culture to culture. Lacking the proper formal wear at a social event can cause you to take a penalty of up to –4 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise checks at the function, as determined by the GM.
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If an NPC wants to meet us unarmed, I'm going to look at the place he wants to meet. Is it a nice safe place, where we can come and go knowing we're not going to be attacked or arbitrarily detained? Then sure, let's have an unarmed meeting.
If he's inviting us to come unarmed to a bad neighborhood where random robberies raise no eyebrows, I'll ask him what kind of ironclad guarantees he's offering for our safe return. Is he going to provide us with an armed escort and a safety deposit/resurrection insurance with the bank of Abadar against our safe return after the meeting?
Having a drunken punch-up at the bar where you're not allowed to bring guns can be fun. But to convince me to go to this no-guns bar you'll have to convince me that the other guests are also not bringing guns and that we're not going to run into say, a bunch of rowdy ghouls who don't need guns.
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Also, when talking about the realism of a country disallowing people from packing: that also comes with an added responsibility for that country to take on the things that in Starfinder seem to be delegated to these heavily armed heroes. So no more "oh cultists have a plan to kill our solar system, well, some citizens are looking into it, no need for the government to get involved".
3) excellent point....thank you. Neck collars going forward.
Just thinking about this, humans are anatomically a little weird i think in having a collar that would work for this. At one extreme of weird an astrozoan could shapechange out of it and for basic anatomy differences ysoki could just probably just slip out of them (since their neck is bigger than their head)
Just thinking about this, humans are anatomically a little weird i think in having a collar that would work for this. At one extreme of weird an astrozoan could shapechange out of it and for basic anatomy differences ysoki could just probably just slip out of them (since their neck is bigger than their head)
3) excellent point....thank you. Neck collars going forward.
I would place a nanite swarm inside the detained spellcaster's brain. Or install them inside of said collar so they react effectively.
However, I will never put it inside of my game.
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] I would place a nanite swarm inside the detained spellcaster's brain. Or install them inside of said collar so they react effectively.
However, I will never put it inside of my game.
And at that point your government is growing more than a lil mustache ripe for twirling there.
I mean you want to do that to a convicted prisoner that's one thing. But we're talking about doing that to EVERY spellcaster. Hello Genosha...
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Installing a fail safe on every spellcaster and locking claw guards on every vesk, while also requiring martial artists to register their bodies as deadly weapons sounds way more dystopian than everyone wearing armor, and carrying null pace grip heavy weapons in their back pocket.
Like the kind of thing you'd expect as aliens visiting the azlanti empire, not as a citizen of the pact worlds.
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This reminds me a bit of my old Vampire campaign. Old school Vampire has a notoriously unbalanced combat system. It's totally possible to surprise people and destroy them in a very unfair fight, even if you're a party of weaker vampires taking on an elder.
What stops it from degenerating into a slaughterfest is that elder vampires know very well that they became elders by avoiding this free for all. They can't afford to let the younglings (there are always many younglings) start thinking they can take on an elder and get away with it. So even though most of the elders have hated each other for hundreds of years, they'll work together to punish anyone who upsets the social order that's kept them from meeting final death all this time.
So the thing stopping people from rampaging isn't that they can't - even young vampires have the means. It's because of the retribution that would follow.
I think Starfinder runs best on a somewhat similar model; most governments aren't going to try to preemptively disarm their population, because it's just too difficult. Instead, they will punish people who commit violence, break the peace, threaten the social order.
This works well for a game: you can have back-alley brawls where the aim of the bad guys was that they'd take out the PCs and then cover up the evidence (never seems to work out). You can have a social encounter with a bad guy who's not done anything egregious yet and the PCs can't just assault them, leading to some fun RP. And when eventually the skiterpoo hits the fan and the PCs have to fight some alien monstrosity that's rampaging, afterwards the government can say "well they fought in the streets but it was for the best, so let's just be nice to them".
This reminds me a bit of my old Vampire campaign. Old school Vampire has a notoriously unbalanced combat system. It's totally possible to surprise people and destroy them in a very unfair fight, even if you're a party of weaker vampires taking on an elder.
What stops it from degenerating into a slaughterfest is that elder vampires know very well that they became elders by avoiding this free for all. They can't afford to let the younglings (there are always many younglings) start thinking they can take on an elder and get away with it. So even though most of the elders have hated each other for hundreds of years, they'll work together to punish anyone who upsets the social order that's kept them from meeting final death all this time.
So the thing stopping people from rampaging isn't that they can't - even young vampires have the means. It's because of the retribution that would follow.
I think Starfinder runs best on a somewhat similar model; most governments aren't going to try to preemptively disarm their population, because it's just too difficult. Instead, they will punish people who commit violence, break the peace, threaten the social order.
This works well for a game: you can have back-alley brawls where the aim of the bad guys was that they'd take out the PCs and then cover up the evidence (never seems to work out). You can have a social encounter with a bad guy who's not done anything egregious yet and the PCs can't just assault them, leading to some fun RP. And when eventually the skiterpoo hits the fan and the PCs have to fight some alien monstrosity that's rampaging, afterwards the government can say "well they fought in the streets but it was for the best, so let's just be nice to them".
Just out of curiosity, as a I played a little old school VTM but mostly RP, how was it possible to "slaughter" elder vampires? I'm guessing you just mean by having a group of vampires assault an individual elder vampire? We didn't play that much, and even then we didn't do much combat so I'm just trying to think of how its possible. One on one it seems impossible. But I think 4 on 1 would go like you said.
So the thing stopping people from rampaging isn't that they can't - even young vampires have the means. It's because of the retribution that would follow.
I think Starfinder runs best on a somewhat similar model; most governments aren't going to try to preemptively disarm their population, because it's just too difficult. Instead, they will punish people who commit violence, break the peace, threaten the social order.
This works well for a game: you can have back-alley brawls where the aim of the bad guys was that they'd take out the PCs and then cover up the evidence (never seems to work out). You can have a social encounter with a bad guy who's not done anything egregious yet and the PCs can't just assault them, leading to some fun RP. And when eventually the skiterpoo hits the fan and the PCs have to fight some alien monstrosity that's rampaging, afterwards the government can say "well they fought in the streets but it was for the best, so let's just be nice to them".
This sounds like a viable solution to my "realism" problem - as well as discouraging "murder hobo-ism."
Just out of curiosity, as a I played a little old school VTM but mostly RP, how was it possible to "slaughter" elder vampires? I'm guessing you just mean by having a group of vampires assault an individual elder vampire? We didn't play that much, and even then we...
I mean, weren't the level 7 powers functionally "handwavium" as in your puny level 1-5 powers won't do squat to someone with one of these?
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Just out of curiosity, as a I played a little old school VTM but mostly RP, how was it possible to "slaughter" elder vampires? I'm guessing you just mean by having a group of vampires assault an individual elder vampire? We didn't play that much, and even then we...
There were some weird artifacts in the system.. the clinch combat move used Strength to hit and for damage, so with Potence (which grants automatic successes on Strength checks) it becomes very easy to grab and squeeze people.
With a lot of level 5 disciplines it was basically the first one to turn them on is at a massive disadvantage. Presence 5 required enemies to spend a Willpower point per turn to defy you, and there was also a rule that you could only spend one Willpower per round on anything, so if you were defying Presence 5 then you wouldn't be able to spend Willpower to activate your own Presence. That sort of thing.
Also the injury system: once you get injured you take more and more penalties making it harder to fight back.