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The book is pretty clear that the ritual will not work. All you have to do is find a way to convince your players that all those people would absolutely die in vain, and it becomes a very different conversation?Indeed, but after seeing how the end of TG did work, that would be a really hard sell; I am sufficiently worried that it might feel like a betrayal of these particular players' genre expectations/expectastions of Good* that I am giving serious consideration to reworking this so the ritual happens as Mangkare plans, but the way in which it does is by sending them into the underlayer of Alseta's Ring for something very similar to the last part of the adventure as written.
(Also, I suspect there is a strong likelihood that some of them might see Scales of War echoes in that final confrontation.)
*That is, what Good means in an alignment sense; none of my players mistake that for having to be compatible with their personal moralities, mine, or anyone at Paizo's. They do care about internal consistency though.
I think that this book will give you the tools to create an interesting subversion of those expectations. Lean into the fact that Mengkare's plan is a darker version of 'heroic' sacrifice, and that Mengkare most certainly sees it as ordinary hero business.
If you want specific suggestions:
1. Make it clear that Mengkare is sacrificing these people against their will. If the PCs suggest that Mengkare inform the people of Promise and get their consent to be sacrificed, have him refuse. After all, when he did that in his first utopian project, he had to wipe a bunch of memories and create Breachill.
2. Make it clear that without that free will, the ritual will not just fail but backfire spectacularly. Lean into the fact that it's not the sacrifice, but the decision to make the sacrifice that truly powers the ritual.
3. Use Jonivar to communicate these ideas if you need them to come from the mouth of an NPC before the confrontation with Mengkare.
This adventure path in general plays a lot with the idea of free will, so treat this as the culmination of those themes. The difference between any given heroic sacrifice and Mengkare's plan is the free will of those who will be sacrificed, and that is all the difference in the world.
1. Make it clear that Mengkare is sacrificing these people against their will. If the PCs suggest that Mengkare inform the people of Promise and get their consent to be sacrificed, have him refuse. After all, when he did that in his first utopian project, he had to wipe a bunch of memories and create Breachill.
This would be a much easier sell had Tyrant's Grasp not started with PCs in a somewhat similar situation they very much did not consent to, without preventing their agency from doing good things thereafter. I can see the outcome there being my group going ahead and informing the people despite Mengkare.
I do like Mengkare as a character, but I feel I would be doing a disservice to his +8 Int +7 Wis +7 Cha to not make him as convincing as possible about his take on the ritual, however wrong he is; even if it does seem off to the players, the natural assumption about a great wyrm gold dragon is that it is a superhuman champion of good who has spent many human lifetimes dwelling on this problem and therefore understands things better than they do, so I can entirely see my players taking the point of Jonivar expressing doubts as "here is a well-meaning but mistaken sceptic whom we should aim to win over to the terrible but necessary truth of how Mengkare says things should go."
Some more ideas:
1. If they inform the people of Promise, have the response be near universal denial. There's no way their benevolent Mengkare would commit such a heinous act. If asked if they would hypothetically go along with such a plan, have the denizens of Promise explain the Golden Contract: if Mengkare commanded them, they would have no say in the matter. No matter how much they might want to refuse, they would be magically compelled to obey. I feel like that might communicate how atypical Mengkare is for a golden dragon, morality wise. Kyrion foreshadows this a little bit by being a red dragon who isn't chaotic evil, lean into that too.
2. If necessary, go hard on the 'this will absolutely positively never work' aspect of the issue. The Golden Contract prevents the citizens of Promise from exercising enough free will to meaningfully consent to the ritual, so their sacrifice will unambiguously be in vain. If you're afraid that Jonivar will be interpreted as a well meaning, but ultimately incorrect skeptic, make sure the PCs get access to Mengkare's notes on the ritual and have them draw that conclusion themselves.
3. The book contains information about what happens if Mengkare proceeds with the Anima Invocation unhindered (essentially, he merges with Dahak's aspect and sets out to wipe out humanity). You could allow the party to learn of that eventuality to fully communicate the consequences of allowing Mengkare's plan to proceed.
At the end of the day, you know your table better than I do so you are the ultimate judge of what is/is not likely to work. However, I think you're overestimating how difficult it is to convince people that murdering ~6000 people is a Bad Thing.
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There is a *world* of difference between killing people without their consent (traditionally referred to as murder) and leading an army of volunteers into a dangerous situation. This is the crux of the issue. If the people of Promise were capable of volunteering, then Mengkare's plan would work. They are not, because they are under the effect of what is essentially a very conditional magical domination. So Mengkare's plan will not work, because he neither respects nor fully understands the concept of free will. Killing the people of Promise is not a heroic sacrifice, it is mass murder, and the difference is consent.
If you encourage your players to examine the bigger picture, I think they will draw the conclusions you need them to. Any given citizen of Promise volunteering to be sacrificed for the greater good would be fine. Every single citizen of Promise being sacrificed *against their will* is unambiguously unethical. The fact that they are under magical compulsion to follow Mengkare's orders makes the situation even less ethical.
The fact that Mengkare has such a system in Promise in the first place should also be a clue that he's up to no good. The lead up to the encounter with Mengkare has a bunch of little things that will help you convey to the party how utterly messed up the Contract of Citizenship is. Rinnarv is magically compelled to serve Emiliza no matter what, which the party can discover if they confront her (which is likely, if they are inclined to trust Mengkare). Inizra can tell the party about the eugenics aspects of Promise, which should be another huge red flag.
Again, obviously you know your players better that I do. I am just not seeing what makes Mengkare come across as Good other than the fact that he's a Gold Dragon, which should not be a huge factor considering Kyrion's demonstration that dragons are not restricted to their default alignments.
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I would like to share how my players are dealing with the Dragon Mengkare. We stopped at a cliffhanger
A brief justification in terms of the narrative of how I planned the meeting with Mengkare.
This moment has been planned since November last year. I structured it as follows:
I decided to use "Diplomacy without Dice Rolls" for this meeting
The following points could influence the dragon, and just the mention of all of them could change his mind completely.
Some topics suggested in the campaign I kept, others I deleted and others I created.
My players covered the following topics during the encounter.
APPEALING TO MERCY (Halungalom- PC)
EKUJAE ELVES (Aramil- PC)
UNDERSTANDING THE SUFFERING OF GOLARION (failed to mention)
ORB OF GOLD DRAGONKIND (Halungalom- PC)
THE DRAGON (failed to mention)
REMEMBER YOUR PAST (Halungalom- PC)
SCARLET TRIAD TRUTHS (Halungalom- PC)
VOLUNTEERING (failed to mention)
DAHAK IS THE REAL FOE (Halungalom- PC)
THE TEACHINGS OF APSU - this mention was the most important because it would make the dragon reflect on the teachings of the father of all dragons (APSU The maker of All). (failed to mention) https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Apsu
The idea was as follows;
0 - 3 topics - Combat
4 - 5 topics - The last two options in the text below.
6 - 8 topics - The text below in its entirety.
10 - topics - Mengkare sees the horrors of his choices and is overcome with shame. The group would decide its next paths.
NOTE: If the 10th topic were spoken, it would be enough to mention six more topics for Mengkare to see the absurdity of his ideology.
They almost succeeded, I understand that it was a very difficult task due to the number of topics needed to reach the most favorable objective.
BELOW FOLLOW THE FINAL saying OF MENGKARE ACCORDING TO THE POINTS my players MENTIONED.
So said the Magnificent Mengkare.
After listening to the considerations of Halungalom, the avatar of Erastil and the servant of Sarenrae, the dragon is silent, during this time, the idyllic creature, seems to fight internally against the values and principles that he just heard.
Finally, he directs his eyes to the stars that shine in the immense chamber gap, and spreading his wings he speaks in a voice that sounds more like a whisper.
- My mother, Nanglith "Protector of the Creatures", taught me that wisdom can indeed be found in the lowest of beings ... The expression of sadness is clear when remembering her mother's words ... the whisper becomes almost inaudible - Perhaps, she was right.
He looks back at the group, but now with a stoic expression
- Well, Lords of the Citadel (the title that my players hold) reflect wisely on my final decision.
-If your goal is really to free Golarion from the destruction of DAHAK, I offer you two paths;
1 - Enter this holy circle and together we will fight for the thousand souls of my people who will be sacrificed to prevent a new Age of Ashes.(if they choose this path, Dahak will possess mengkare and the players will be in a terrible situation)
2 - If you really want to prove that my worldview is wrong and that everyone, regardless of the qualities they carry, should have the right to a voice in society, be the example, offer yourselves freely and spontaneously for sacrifice (the whole group) ). If you so choose, I give you my word that if I survive the ordeal, I pass control of the city of Promise to Inizra Arumelo and Drielle (a secondary PC ) and leave the region of Hermea forever. Furthermore, I promise to donate all my treasure to the families of those who sacrificed themselves.
… The expression changes again, this time the dragon's face shows seriousness.
- If you do not consider these options acceptable, unfortunately, I see only two outcomes for the situation in which we find ourselves. Be reasonable, leave Promise immediately and pray at least that I will be successful in my battle against DAHAK.
- Finally, you can choose the path of violence. this decision will be terrible, but I only beg that if you wish to follow it, spare my people during the battle.
- that is my final decision.
The countenance changes for the last time, the fire grows inside and with a terrifying voice, he speaks ...
- Choose now!!!
TO BE CONTINUED
I would like to hear your opinion on how I structured this meeting.
and thanks paizo for this amazing campaign
Sorry for my bad english.
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I haven't looked at the maps recently, but remember that Mengkare can turn into a medium sized Lamond Breachton at will.
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I think the idea is that Emaliza thinks the Orb will control Mengkare, and goes into the confrontation with that assumption. When she uses it, she discovers for the first time that her secret weapon is significantly less powerful than she thought it was, and pays the price. Thanks to the considerable efforts of the party throughout the AP, the Scarlet Triad did not have enough time or resources to perfectly recreate the Orb of Gold Dragonkind.
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James James posted earlier in this thread about the dragon hoard in this book; it seems relevant here too. Basically it comes down to the campaign is almost over, let the players live a little.
On page 43 in the Citadel Archives, what is the space between areas E2 and E6? According to the map there is no access but there is an everburning torch, and the text offers no description. Is this a mistake? Should it be part of E6 with reading rooms (in which case a door or other entryway would need to be added)?
I am learning towards the latter as I create my map, but does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Those are clearly wrong, but I haven't seen any official correction to them yet.
I substituted AC 45; Fort +30, Ref +33, Will +36 (from the other 20th level wizard in that adventure, page 87).
haven't read the rest yet, but a quick search of this thread seemed to suggest no-one has pointed this out yet
Rinnarv Bontimar has masses of spells, and a large proportion have * next to them, but it's not clear what this means! it seems to be a few spells repeated at lots but not all lvls. could they be his bloodline spells? his signature spells? both?
It looks like the asterisks correspond to his bloodline spells. He has the bloodline powers from the Angelic sorcerer bloodline, and each spell with an asterisk is from that bloodline's list of spells. In addition, many of his spells are listed in multiple spell levels. I suspect that his signature spells are not explicitly denoted, but that instead each signature spell is listed at each spell level it could be heightened to. That would also explain why Rinnarv knows 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 9th level Resist Energy.
Those are clearly wrong, but I haven't seen any official correction to them yet.
I substituted AC 45; Fort +30, Ref +33, Will +36 (from the other 20th level wizard in that adventure, page 87).
On discussion with someone on PFRPG Discord, I've come to the conclusion that they should be 42 AC, 33x2, 36 (Fort & Ref, Will) for saves, which are pretty close to Emaliza's But a bit different to account for his different other stats
That should actually be empty space/solid wall. We made an error when ordering the map.
Thanks. Can you tell me if the 20' squares for the Vengegate Node is the correct scale?
that's only the 2nd biggest map in the AP! another than i'll have to do 10ft squares on r20 for!
just discovered that the monument circle map in the book says 1sq=10ft, but in the interactive maps it says it's 1sq=ft! which is it?
It looks like the asterisks correspond to his bloodline spells. He has the bloodline powers from the Angelic sorcerer bloodline, and each spell with an asterisk is from that bloodline's list of spells. In addition, many of his spells are listed in multiple spell levels. I suspect that his signature spells are not explicitly denoted, but that instead each signature spell is listed at each spell level it could be heightened to. That would also explain why Rinnarv knows 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 9th level Resist Energy.
that looks right, i think all or most of his bloodline spells are signature spells, and some others unmarked?
Ingnovim Tluss seems pretty weirdly powerful and also incomplete?
his unstable mutagen (with 4 uses) isn't incapacitation in any respect, but it has a paralyse effect on a crit fail, with 24hr+ duration, with a crit success needed to end it after 24hrs or it keeps going for another day before you get a new save, and it's not magical or a curse so you'd pretty much need wish, miracle etc. to remove it within any good time? maybe that's intended? you don't have a lot of time in promise before mengkare comes back (3d?) so can't really wait it out!
Another thing, this time that's missing, is that he has major bestial mutagen, but no attacks listed for it!, it's infused, so mostly useless as loot, so is he supposed to use it? if so what's the att mod and dmg mod? same as his dagger, or his syringe (they're 5 apart!)? it gives a d8 claw and d10 jaw attack, and it gives you wep spec with them, which is a dmg bonus based off proficiency (weirdly they don't tell you this NPCs prof's!) and would you add his str to the dmg? that's not usually how NPCs work and i think this is the 1st i've seen in AoA that's seemingly requiring you to create multiple attacks yourself!
might be easier to just ignore that he has it! he specifically ignores the drawbacks of all mutagens though, so seems he's supposed to use them? he also has major juggernaut mutagen, so maybe just use that? although the stated tactics specifically say he uses it
the dragonshard guardian has true seeing stated as a sense, which generally means it has the true seeing spell as constant, but it doesn't have any spells listed or corresponding spell att bonus to use for counteracting with true seeing!
usually you can guess spell att mod when it's missing based on the spell DC, but when there's no spells...?
also ofc no tradition listed for anything like that, and with no DC listed, if a PC learned about it and wanted to dispel it?
perhaps using mengkare's spell att and DC with a -2 to account for the lvl difference, and his tradition of arcane too?
Ingnovim Tluss seems pretty weirdly powerful and also incomplete?
his unstable mutagen (with 4 uses) isn't incapacitation in any respect, but it has a paralyse effect on a crit fail, with 24hr+ duration, with a crit success needed to end it after 24hrs or it keeps going for another day before you get a new save, and it's not magical or a curse so you'd pretty much need wish, miracle etc. to remove it within any good time? maybe that's intended? you don't have a lot of time in promise before mengkare comes back (3d?) so can't really wait it out!Another thing, this time that's missing, is that he has major bestial mutagen, but no attacks listed for it!, it's infused, so mostly useless as loot, so is he supposed to use it? if so what's the att mod and dmg mod? same as his dagger, or his syringe (they're 5 apart!)? it gives a d8 claw and d10 jaw attack, and it gives you wep spec with them, which is a dmg bonus based off proficiency (weirdly they don't tell you this NPCs prof's!) and would you add his str to the dmg? that's not usually how NPCs work and i think this is the 1st i've seen in AoA that's seemingly requiring you to create multiple attacks yourself!
might be easier to just ignore that he has it! he specifically ignores the drawbacks of all mutagens though, so seems he's supposed to use them? he also has major juggernaut mutagen, so maybe just use that? although the stated tactics specifically say he uses it
it's been suggested that +34 (same as dagger) and 4 dice with +10 dmg mod seems balanced
I've noticed that the Manifestation of Dahak (i.e. the end boss of the whole AP) is missing a DC for his constrict!!
The other DCs for the manifestation range from 44-48, so anything from 44-52 (extreme DC for this level opponent) would be appropriate in my opinion. Since it is only one action to Constrict (Improved Grab makes the grabbing free) maybe consider putting it at the lower end of that range.
Hopefully Luis pops in to give us an official answer, though.
Hey guys,
Simple one. Page 14 Dragonstorm Fire Giants are listed as 3 of them in the stat block, but victory points says “1 victory point for defeating all four giants”
Does anyone know if it should be 3 or 4 giants for that fight?
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Hey guys,
Simple one. Page 14 Dragonstorm Fire Giants are listed as 3 of them in the stat block, but victory points says “1 victory point for defeating all four giants”
Does anyone know if it should be 3 or 4 giants for that fight?
It's labeled as a Severe encounter, so it should be three. Four would make it an Extreme encounter instead.
It's labeled as a Severe encounter, so it should be three. Four would make it an Extreme encounter instead.Hey guys,
Simple one. Page 14 Dragonstorm Fire Giants are listed as 3 of them in the stat block, but victory points says “1 victory point for defeating all four giants”
Does anyone know if it should be 3 or 4 giants for that fight?
Thanks. Appreciate the help.
Maybe can again, but with a non-combat question.
Page 43, E4: describes southern door leading to E7 has a powerful ward that requires a citizens contract to open. Is it assumed there is no way dispel magic or thievery can disarm this? I know my players will want to try, especially as up to this point outside of Jonivar there really aren’t any NPC’s suitable to bring with you, and even Jonivar I imagine would be reluctant to sneak around Menekare’s archive.
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You're quite welcome, I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)
As for the non-combat question, the ward doesn't do what you think it does. To quote:
The southern door leading to area E7 bears a potent ward that prevents anyone who has signed a Contract of Citizenship from passing through it or even opening the door.
It does exactly the reverse of what you say, preventing anyone with a citizenship contract from entering it. It doesn't effect the PCs at all.
It's probably only mentioned to explain why there's no security to stop the PCs, and to ensure they need to do the research in there themselves.
From an in-character perspective it also shows off Mengkare's arrogance, as he's so sure nobody can get to this area without being a citizen that he's only defended against citizens.
You're quite welcome, I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)
As for the non-combat question, the ward doesn't do what you think it does. To quote:
The southern door leading to area E7 bears a potent ward that prevents anyone who has signed a Contract of Citizenship from passing through it or even opening the door.It does exactly the reverse of what you say, preventing anyone with a citizenship contract from entering it. It doesn't effect the PCs at all.
It's probably only mentioned to explain why there's no security to stop the PCs, and to ensure they need to do the research in there themselves.
From an in-character perspective it also shows off Mengkare's arrogance, as he's so sure nobody can get to this area without being a citizen that he's only defended against citizens.
You’re quite right. Thanks again for the help. Can’t wait for my players to get there. I know my players and will be going with a narrative arguement over the skill tests, so what to make sure they get all the information they need
The entry specifically states that additional damage from its weakness (with sonic being the only one) is part of Reverberating Revenge, so yeah, it's intentional. It only gets one reaction per round, so clever PCs can exploit that if they discover its weakness.
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they're pretty powerful without grab!
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Anybody else notice how high the attack bonus on the Promise Guards is? +38 is an extreme attack for a creature two levels higher than they are. Also, 7d8 is a pretty bizarre number to use for a longsword's damage. I am guessing they probably added the item bonus on top of the existing extreme attack bonus.
Similarly, they have extreme AC before they enter Paragon Stance, at which point their SC is basically 2 higher permanently. That's kind of absurd.
I'd probably chalk all that up to early edition weirdness, given the GMG monster rules were still being worked on at this time. But I'd definitely correct those numbers before I ran them.
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The damage, while oddly set up, works out about right for their level (in a later AP it would probably have fewer dice and a higher static bonus, but the total is about right), and given their high level and lack of options in many ways, I think their AC with Promise Guard Stance is fine as well.
The to-hit bonus, however, is indeed too high. It should probably be +35. Still Extreme for their level, but not quite so ridiculous.
The party i am Gming is in this chapter and they ended the first half, the (almost) non stop fights/crisis management in Breachill.
How did your partys behave regarding this?
I think if i did all that was that by the book i would have a TPK in my hands, they still felt challenged even if i (for example) did not always use the dragonstorm attack in all beginning of the events, my party is composed of a Fighter (Board and Sword), Sorcerer (Blast away), Rogue (Let's Scare and Intimidate people) and Cleric (Awesome healing bot).
They suffered badly from lack of spell slots (specially healing), and they tend to get stuck in the PF1 mentality of let's get on top of the monsters (yes, my monsters usually have 3 attacks to take almost always).
Generally it works because the cleric keep them up, and the damage done by the rogue/fighter/sorcerer is enough.
But this chapter was not a 100 meters dash, it was 10.000 meters....