Dance of Chains Feat and Magus Spell Combat

[Derek Dalton]

So Dance of Chain feat allows you to use your Dex for damage instead of Str. It also allows you to extend the reach by 5Ft. The last sentence in the feat states you lose these benefits if you use a shield or fight with multiple weapons. Now Magus has Spell Combat which acts like 2 Weapon fighting except instead of a second weapon you cast a spell. So the question is do I lose the benefits of the feat when I use my Magus spell Combat?

[baggageboy]

This is really a rules question, I can tell you it's not completely cut and dry. A lot of people will say yes you lose the benefits. The wording is not quite as restrictive as the wording on smashing grace or fencing grace though so you might be able to argue it

Edited: Added the the "not" that got missed when I initially posted.

[Derek Dalton]

Last time I asked what seemed a Rules Question another member got testy saying it wasn't I should have posted it here in General Discussion. So that's why I posted the question here.
Honestly I'm not sure how I'd rule it as a GM. While the Magus Spell Combat functions as 2 WP fighting it's not using a weapon but a spell instead.

[Dave Justus]

I don't see any reason based on the wording why spell combat wouldn't work with this feat. "acts like 2 weapon fighting" is significantly different then "fights with multiple weapons."

That being said, I am surprised at this feat. There has been a obvious effort to make this sort of thing not work, including an errata to slashing grace. I wouldn't be surprised at a GM not allowing it to work to maintain consistency (just as I wouldn't be surprised at a GM not allowing Dervish Dance with spell combat, even though it was never officially errated)

[Meirril]

Derek Dalton wrote:

So Dance of Chain feat allows you to use your Dex for damage instead of Str. It also allows you to extend the reach by 5Ft. The last sentence in the feat states you lose these benefits if you use a shield or fight with multiple weapons. Now Magus has Spell Combat which acts like 2 Weapon fighting except instead of a second weapon you cast a spell. So the question is do I lose the benefits of the feat when I use my Magus spell Combat?

Well, you wouldn't lose the benefits of Dance of Chains if you could use spell combat. The problem is you can't use Spell Combat while wielding a Spiked Chain.

Spell Combat wrote:

To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.

You might be able to use a Spiked Chain with one hand, but it is still a 2-handed weapon. So it won't work with Spell Combat. If you look at Bladed Brush it has language that would allow a Magus to use Spell Combat with a Glaive. Dance of Chains lacks that language.

Edit: Oops. Chain Mastery makes a spiked chain into a one handed weapon. So it should be fine with Spell Combat.

[Dave Justus]

Fair enough, the wielding 'wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon' does prevent it. I was looking at the language in the feat itself, not thinking about the other spell combat restrictions.

[baggageboy]

Chain mastery says you treat it as a one handed weapon for class features, so it should be fine on that account.

[Claxon]

Chain Mastery makes the question unimportant.

Chain Mastery allows you to treat a spiked chain as a 1 handed weapon for all purposes, so Spell Combat doesn't care.

[Derek Dalton]

Chain Mastery states if you use Multiple weapons you lose the benefit of the feat. Now spell combat states acts like two weapon fighting, hence the question. I wanted to make sure I wasn't violating any rules with this combination.

[Claxon]

No, Chain Mastery does not state you lose the benefit of the feat if you use two weapons. Dance of Chains says you lose it if you use two weapons.

With chain mastery you can definitely spell combat with a spiked chain.

The only question would be, does Spell Combat somehow count as "fighting with multiple weapons or when using a shield (but not when using a buckler)" and thus cause you not to get dex to damage with your spiked chain. The wording of the restriction is vague and unclear.

However, IMO the fact that the Chain becomes a one handed weapon with Chain Mastery, you don't have any other literal weapons or shield in your other hand, means it should just work.

But then again, if we look at other feats for general precedent (getting dex to damage while using spell combat) and ignore the precise wording of the feats it would probably say no.

[baggageboy]

An interesting interaction similar is brawler's flurry should work if you use versatile weapon mod or some other similar method. It would be pretty brutal.

[Derklord]

Dance of Chains says "You lose these benefits while fighting with multiple weapons". Spell Combat says "This functions much like two-weapon fighting".
"functions much like" ≠ "is". Of course, the feat doesn't actually check for TWF, and TWF isn't always using muliple weapons anyway.