Hi All
I am playing in a Season of the Plundered Tombs online table
We are about to convert to Core rules as a Trial
We are starting scenario 3-3A: HIDDEN IN THE STACKS
Society Guide 6.0 Conversion rules tell the Box Runner to remove all
Basic & Elite cards
The most used trader in both Season 3 & 4 is the Sunburst market which allows the player to choose 1 basic card.
How do these two points interact?
A: The build the vault applies only for the cards in the adventure, so Sunburst market works normally
or
B: The build the vault applies before the traders, so no basic cards and the Sunburst market has only Blessing of Elements and Blessing of Ancients available?
I know RAW the answer is B, however I am hoping the powers that be will rule A
Build the Vault
In earlier seasons, ... start by adding all of
the cards from the listed products to the vault, then remove
all Basic and Elite non-blessing cards whose level is at least
three lower than the # of the adventure. For example, if you’re
setting up a scenario in adventure 5, you’ll remove all Basic
and Elite cards (other than blessings) of levels 0 (that is, B, P,
and C), 1, and 2.
When you draw cards from the box to display on Sunburst Market, instead of the usual method, each character that is visiting Sunburst Market chooses a non-loot that has the Basic trait. Cost: 1 boon.
Chief Technical Officer
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When the PACS Guide uses older terminology like Basic (as it does in the Build the Vault rules and in the Hierarchy), it's deliberate and specifically in the context of older cards that bear those words, so it means exactly what it says: remove those Basic and Elite cards at the appropriate time. (The non-Basic, non-Elites stay in the vault.)
When older cards use older terminology like Basic, though, look to the Transition Guide in the Core Set Rulebook and the Conversion Guide online. The Transition Guide tells you "When effects refer to cards that have the Basic trait, treat them as referring to level 0 cards; when they refer to cards that have the Elite trait, treat them as referring to level 1, 2, or 3 cards."
So the Sunburst Market's reference to "a non-loot boon that has the Basic trait" now translates to "a level 0 non-Loot boon." Since the Transition Guide also says "If an older card’s level is B, C, or P, treat it as 0," that means the Sunburst Market now lets you get B, C, or P boons even if they lack the Basic trait.
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Vic: The question, though, is that the Society rules tell you to get rid of all the cards that are available at Sunburst Market, making it useless after you start the appropriate Adventure.
Matsu: We let you get any Basic card throughout our Season of Plundered Tombs campaign, with the justification that the cards override the rulebook. This also affects rewards, as you wouldn't have a Remove Curse available for card substitution from your rewards unless the reward overrides the rulebook.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Vic: The question, though, is that the Society rules tell you to get rid of all the cards that are available at Sunburst Market, making it useless after you start the appropriate Adventure.
No—I'm saying that the Transition Guide is redefining the pool of cards available at Sunburst Market to include *all* B, C, and P cards, not just the ones with the Basic trait. The Guide is just culling the Basics and Elites, so there are plenty of cards left at the market.
OK, thanks for the speedy response
Thankfully remove curse and elemental treaty were specific loot reward and still available
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Vic: The question, though, is that the Society rules tell you to get rid of all the cards that are available at Sunburst Market, making it useless after you start the appropriate Adventure.No—I'm saying that the Transition Guide is redefining the pool of cards available at Sunburst Market to include *all* B, C, and P cards, not just the ones with the Basic trait. The Guide is just culling the Basics and Elites, so there are plenty of cards left at the market.
Most of the groups that ran PluTo heavily depended on the Basics in the market though - particularly Cure, Elemental Treaty, and Remove Curse.
Anyways, the actual list of non-Basic, non-Elite B/C cards in MM is as follows:
Weapons:
-Garrotte
-Icy Longspear +1 (Character add-on)
Spells:
-Acid Splash
-Acute Senses
-Find Traps (!)
-Good Omen (character add-on)
Armors:
-Catching Cape
Items:
-Alchemist's Kit
-Brilliance of Ra
-Burglar's Bracers (character add-on)
-Canteen
-Frost Staff
-Ghost Battling Ring
-Healer's Kit
-Key of the Second Vault (character add-on)
-Potion of Energy Resistance
-Potion of Healing
-Ring of the Godless
-Seer's Tea
-Smoked Glass Goggles
-Twitch Tonic (well, I'm glad that this is using the new rules at least)
-Wing of Horus
Allies:
-Aunty
-Dredge
-Druid of the Hive
-Falto
-Fire Gecko
-Giant Slug
-Kafar
-Mahga Threefingers
-Marianix Karn
-Meehr Zet
-Mumia Smuggler
-Nefti the Bard
-Osirion Ancestor
-Pard
-Stained Glass Elemental (!)
-Stone Weasel
-Tarworks Master
-Terhk Fourwinds
-Ubashki
Blessings:
-any named blessing (including Abadar)
That wasn't as bad as I had originally thought. I'm actually slightly worried in the other direction as a Mother Myrtle with 2 Twitch Tonics might be a force to be reckoned with. And Find Traps.
Still, lack of good B non-Basic/non-Elite armors will hurt, and Stone Weasel doesn't really fill the gap.
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I don't really see the difference between the new rules and the old rules on this one. Despite word/terminology changes, both removed Basic/Elite cards from the box at some point. I do get the new rules redefine basic which introduces a new problem, but at a base level, it seems like the first part of removing cards is the same with minor differences.
Every table I have played Season 3/4 with under the old rules let you pull whatever basic trait card you wanted from the box, even in later AD's when those cards are now removed. Were we playing wrong? This is multiple groups at various meet-ups/conventions/etc
As Parody/zeroth_hour said, Remove Curse, Elemental Treaty, and Cure are the big reason why Sunburst Market gets used. Denying access to these cards is a huge shift. This is an issue in both seasons 3 and 4 but more so in Season 4 where some of these cards aren't given as loot. Particularly Remove Curse which is a way to let earlier CD's deal with scourges from the MM box. Ultimate decks can't be considered a solution for that since not all of them provide a scourge removal card (i believe only Magic and Intrigue do). I highly doubt the intention was to cut-off access to some characters only source of scourge removal
I think that there should be a clarification somewhere (either in Seasons 3/4, or in 6.0 guide) to specify that trader Sunburst Market only refers to cards with the literal word "basic" printed in the top left corner of the card, even if the card would have been removed from the game. Or publish a list of allowable cards and append that to the Season 3/4 pdfs if there is concern about "basic" meaning something else now.
I'm also worried about providing access to Twitch Tonic to every CD. That card is too powerful to provide on a reliable basis. This would cut-off that access
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I forgot that you don't get a Remove Curse substitution in Season 4; we skipped that one and went to 5. Ouch.
Our group did use Sunburst Market to trade not-very-helpful cards that were still in our decks for Blessings that can almost always be used in a way so that they are recharged, especially early on in the AP. Better than a pre-Core Blast Stone or a random Bard Deck Ally! :)
OK, thanks for the speedy response
Thankfully remove curse and elemental treaty were specific loot reward and still available
Just to clarify, is this part correct? That is, for example, Basic Remove Curse may no longer be traded for at Sunburst Market after Basics are culled from the vault. But it could still be substituted in from the box at that point, as a specific scenario's loot reward?
Just to clarify, is this part correct? That is, for example, Basic Remove Curse may no longer be traded for at Sunburst Market after Basics are culled from the vault. But it could still be substituted in from the box at that point, as a specific scenario's loot reward?OK, thanks for the speedy response
Thankfully remove curse and elemental treaty were specific loot reward and still available
Thats how we have been playing in a Play by Post table
Just to clarify, is this part correct? That is, for example, Basic Remove Curse may no longer be traded for at Sunburst Market after Basics are culled from the vault. But it could still be substituted in from the box at that point, as a specific scenario's loot reward?OK, thanks for the speedy response
Thankfully remove curse and elemental treaty were specific loot reward and still available
So, after some research, here's my findings. From Page 10 of the Card Guild Guide, the "Loot Rewards" box...
Many scenarios include a loot reward in the form “Loot: [card type] [card name].” Note it on your Chronicle sheet. When setting up any scenario in that adventure path, any 1 character may replace a card of the listed type from their deck with the named card from the game box. That card gains the Loot trait. At the end of the scenario, return the loot card to the game box and return the card it replaced to the character’s deck.
The key phrase here is "Game Box"... which is technically an archaic term that is now, post-Core, simply referred to as the "Box", which is distinct from the "Vault" and has a different meaning. When a card is (formerly) "Removed from the game", that simply means to take it out of the vault.
As a result, if this panel on Loot Rewards applied to Season 3, then yes you could use the Remove Curse loot even after it was removed from the vault.
One can make the argument that this panel does not apply to Seasons 0-5, though. Specifically because it says...
Many scenarios include a loot reward in the form “Loot: [card type] [card name]."
Which... is not the form that pre-Core Loot rewards are stated as in PACS, ever. They're a different template.
But then I actually looked at the reward in question, since it has a different template and all, and found...
For the rest of the Adventure Path, 1 character may temporarily replace 1 spell in her deck with the spell Remove Curse. At the end of each scenario, return the spell to the game box.
It never says that Remove Curse comes from the box/vault. If anything, it says to return it to the game box, which is subtly different from the "box" in various ways. For example, Season 0-5 rewards that draw from the 'box' instead draw from your class decks, but rewards that draw from the 'game box' actually refers to, well, the box.
A bit more understandably, the distinction between 'box' and 'game box' is actually similar to the more clear post-core delineation between 'vault' and 'box'. The "Box" (pre-Core) and "Vault" (post-Core) are the cards that populate the locations and summoned/new cards come from. The "Game Box" (pre-Core) and "Box" (post-Core) is literally the AP's cards, sitting in the physical box, regardless of their level, regardless of whether they've been 'removed from the box/vault' or not.
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All of the above does rely on the assumption that pre-core references to the Game Box are equivalent to the current definition of "Box", as opposed to the pre-Core definition of "Box". Given how the Card Guild Guide v6.0 carefully uses the terms Vault and Box separately, much like how the Card Guild Guide v5.0 carefully used the terms Game Box and Box seperately, that seems a reasonable assumption... but not one clarified anywhere.
Trying to apply current rules-understanding to old rules texts is trying to fit round pegs into square holes, and all that. But I'm swimming in so much reading I'm not even certain what the pre-Core RAW said as to whether or not you could take Loot that's been removed from the box, because the term "Game Box" wasn't ever formally clarified as to how different it was to the Box. (There was a difference, because PACS rewards from the box were converted to be drawn from your Class Deck, but not PACS rewards from the game box... I just don't know how far the difference goes.)
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In short, I think I've rules-lawyered myself into agreeing with you. I would interpret the above to say that yes you can use loot rewards even if they've been removed from the game.
This is also very relevant for Season of the Righteous, which features a Loot card that removes itself from the game under some circumstances. Unfortunately, that also applies to a Loot Card in the Cosmic Captive special which removes itself from the game to give you a skill feat - having that be repeatable is clearly undesirable.
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FWIW: You might want to pick a term like Substitution or Replacement card, as neither Remove Curse nor Elemental Treaty are Loot cards. (There are examples in other Seasons as well.)
I've been using "substitution" since I don't think that word is used elsewhere in the PACG, but "replace" is the one used in the instructions themselves.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Let me try again:
The reward says you can use the loot card, so per the Golden Rules, you can.
(The second part of my previous post was just backup—it doesn't matter that it doesn't apply to those non-Loot rewards.)
(The new Loot Rewards sidebar in the Guide applies specifically to rewards of the form "Loot: [card type] [card name],” so it has no bearing on older rewards and doesn't need any terminology changes. Rewards in that format become Loot cards even if they weren't before.)