Help me flush out a Weretouched Shifter / Unchained Barbarian build

[Slyme]

I am wanting to make a small natural attacks focused character, and mixing a combination of Weretouched Shifter (thanks to the way hybrid form works) and unchained barbarian seems to be the best way to go.

I'm just unsure on how many levels of each to go for, and what order to take them in. Plus, which feats to go with.

I'll be building this using PFS rules, so 20pt buy, Paizo only materials etc. The one feat requirement I've set for this is the Wilding feat, which can only be taken at level 1.

I'm leaning towards Gnome with a 10 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha for stats.

Dex based seems like the way to go, so Weapon Finesse at level 3 is probably a given, along with an Agile AoMF as soon as I can afford it.

Unchained Barbarian looks like it works better for this build than core, since it gives flat bonuses to hit and damage instead of boosting stats.

I am thinking 6 levels of Shifter and 5 levels of Barbarian is going to be the best mix...that or 8 Shifter / 3 Barb. Probably start things off with a level of Barb to maximize hit points, then full out Shifter to 6 or 8, then switch back to Barb to finish things out.

Tiger for the animal aspect on the Shifter levels, the pounce + claw/claw/bite/grab/rake/rake while in hybrid form seems potent...and I'm not really a fan of the dinosaur options, at least not for this character.

Right now my feats look like 1-Wilding, 3-Weapon Finesse, 5-Dirty Fighting, 7-Improved Grapple, 9-Raking Claws, 11-Deadly Grappler...I am open to suggestions for improvements.

The idea is a tiny feral ball of rage that charges across the combat and latches on to it's prey...shredding them until they stop twitching, then moving on to the next.

Probably grab Gauntlets of Rending to boost the claw/rake damage a little more, any other items I should be looking at?

Thoughts, suggestions, etc?

[Wonderstell]

Slyme wrote:

I am thinking 6 levels of Shifter and 5 levels of Barbarian is going to be the best mix...that or 8 Shifter / 3 Barb. Probably start things off with a level of Barb to maximize hit points, then full out Shifter to 6 or 8, then switch back to Barb to finish things out.

4 levels is probably enough with Wis 14. You gain absolutely nothing worthwhile after level 4 as a Weretouched with the Tiger aspect.

Slyme wrote:

Tiger for the animal aspect on the Shifter levels, the pounce + claw/claw/bite/grab/rake/rake while in hybrid form seems potent...and I'm not really a fan of the dinosaur options, at least not for this character.

A Shifter has to wait until level 15 before they have access to Rake, so you have only three attacks.

Slyme wrote:

Right now my feats look like 1-Wilding, 3-Weapon Finesse, 5-Dirty Fighting, 7-Improved Grapple, 9-Raking Claws, 11-Deadly Grappler...I am open to suggestions for improvements.

Shifter's Rush, Planar Wild Shape, Invoke Primal Instinct (needs a good Bluff modifier)

Slyme wrote:

The idea is a tiny feral ball of rage that charges across the combat and latches on to it's prey...shredding them until they stop twitching, then moving on to the next.

Welp, the biggest problem with this concept is that the Grab ability only functions on targets smaller than yourself, which in this case means tiny and below. Even with the Powerful Shape feat we're still only capable of grappling small targets as part of our attacks.

Slyme wrote:

Probably grab Gauntlets of Rending to boost the claw/rake damage a little more, any other items I should be looking at?

Animal Mask for a gore attack?

[Syries]

You don’t get rake until much later (15th), and you can’t actually use grab on anyone medium size or bigger (specific to the grab ability, not the grapple rules)

I’d rather suggest you go deinonychus for claw/claw/talon/talon/bite, with animal mask for a gore attack on top.

You only need four levels of shifter unless you find yourself running out of your wild shape, considering that you only have 4 hours a day, but my guess is once you snag shifter’s rush you likely won’t have a problem.

[Slyme]

Hmm, some things to think about for sure...I hadn't realized grab had size limitations, I was going off the general grapple rules...so grab is useless for this concept...and I don't know how I missed the no rake til level 15 part. Definitely puts a kink in the offensive capabilities of the build.

Deinonychus looks like it would definitely be stronger mechanically...but I think feathered raptors are dumb. :P Someone at Paizo is way too in love with dinosaurs.

Several of the wild shape related feats are based around number of uses...how does that work after the errata that made the shifter wild shape purely time based? Does each extra use from those feats just eat up an hour?

Any other ways to get more natural attacks on the tiger themed build besides Helm of the Mammoth Lord or Animal Mask?

[Derklord]

Slyme wrote:

Several of the wild shape related feats are based around number of uses...how does that work after the errata that made the shifter wild shape purely time based? Does each extra use from those feats just eat up an hour?

From the FAQ, "For abilities that function based on ‘uses of wild shape,’ each hour of wild shape counts as a use."

Slyme wrote:

Any other ways to get more natural attacks on the tiger themed build besides Helm of the Mammoth Lord or Animal Mask?

Spirit Oni Master? :-p

More seriously, Mutated Shape grants an extra attack and even grows the respective body part (two-headed weretiger anyone?). Of course, there's also Rage powers, Lesser Fiend Totem in this case.

[Syries]

True, since you already have pounce and you’re multiclassing you don’t need Beast Totem. Unfortunately mutated shape is now PFS legal, so without items you’re looking at fiend Totem.

Don’t underestimate the coolness factor of being a were-dinosaur. Those feathers will be dyed red with the blood of the enemies you have torn apart.

Also you’re a gnome. Looking a bit strange is part of your job.

[Errant Inlad]

Have you considered playing a Goblin Feral Gnasher Barbarian/Weretouched Shifter? Definitely gets that tiny ball of fury vibe going, and you basically get grab as a barb ability.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Slyme wrote:

Any other ways to get more natural attacks on the tiger themed build besides Helm of the Mammoth Lord or Animal Mask?

Dip a level in White Haired Witch, and you get a Hair Attack.

The Fleshwarped Whip gives you a Tail Attack.

There is a Tentacle Cloak that gives you a Tentacle Attack, 2 actually.

Slyme wrote:

Barbarian

Claw, Bite, and Gore Attacks are available as Barbarian Rage Powers. You'd have to choose between Claw and Gore.

Out-of-theme, but Gorillas get Slam Attacks.

Slyme wrote:

I am wanting to make a small natural attacks focused character

I think of it as a problem that you use lesser Damage Dice when you are Small. There is a Halfling Feat, Risky Striker that mitigates this, and Power Attack seems like a good idea.

I think my favorite way to score big damage with a size small character is Sneak Attack Damage. You take Dirty Trick Feats to Blind your opponent. Blinded opponents lose their Dex Mods to AC, so you get your SAD. When you are up against opponents with Blindsight or Blind Fighting, you play another Dirty Trick and make them Deaf, too.

Slyme wrote:

grab had size limitations, I was going off the general grapple rules...so grab is useless for this concept...and I don't know how I missed the no rake til level 15 part. Definitely puts a kink in the offensive capabilities of the build.

Witches' White Hair has a Grab-like feature, but it's not Grab, so you don't have the Size Limit, and you aren't Grappled yourself when someone is Grappled in your Hair.

There is another way: Hamatula Strike. Every Attack with a Piercing Weapon gives you an instant Grapple. Wear Armor Spikes, and every Grapple attack does Armor Spike Damage: 1d4 (size Small), but you would also get your Sneak Attack Damage if you are going that way.

Gore and Bite are Piercing Weapons. Claws aren't, so you need to take a Feat or 2 to get them to do Piercing Damage. There is a Feat that does it, Martial or Versatile Flexiversatility or something. Another way to do it is with a combination of Feral Combat Training and the Snake Style Feat. That way is more expensive, but Snake Fang is an awesome Feat and totally worth it.

So now we are up to 2 Claws, 2 Slams, 2 Tentacles, Bite, Gore, Hair, and Tail: That's 10 attacks, 20 if you do the Hamatula Strike + Armor Spikes thing, and after you Blind your opponents, all 20 also do Sneak Attack Damage.

Respectable.

[Slyme]

The nice thing about the Weretouched Shifter, is their hybrid form gets the damage of their animal form even though you maintain your regular size...so it mitigates the reduced damage dice of being small.

White Haired Witch for 1-2 levels might be a solid option...free grapple with the hair attacks helps, and they get constrict with it at level 2.

I'll have to play around with 4 Weretouched Shifter / 2 White Haired Witch / rest going to Barbarian, see how it adds up.

Goblin is not a PFS legal race without a boon, and I do not have access to that boon.

The Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail whip is not PFS legal either.

The Tentacle Cloak is interesting, bit on the expensive side though. I'll add it to the list of things to think about.

[Derklord]

Slyme wrote:

The nice thing about the Weretouched Shifter, is their hybrid form gets the damage of their animal form even though you maintain your regular size...

Nothing say you do so, and natural attack damage dice are always size dependant. Remember that when the archetype was written, most of the major aspects didn't list explicit damage dice.

Of course, small damage dice aren't a problem, as the damage bonuses outweight them anyway.

[Errant Inlad]

Slyme wrote:

Goblin is not a PFS legal race without a boon, and I do not have access to that boon.

Welp, that's a bit unfortunate. I'm unfamiliar with PFS rules. If PFS legal, the Strangler brawler is worth looking into. Grants you sneak attack on grapple checks (Might be less DPR than getting standard SA, I dunno)

[Scott Wilhelm]

Errant Inlad wrote:

Slyme wrote:

Goblin is not a PFS legal race without a boon, and I do not have access to that boon.

Welp, that's a bit unfortunate. I'm unfamiliar with PFS rules. If PFS legal, the Strangler brawler is worth looking into. Grants you sneak attack on grapple checks (Might be less DPR than getting standard SA, I dunno)

Oh, it sure is!

Everyone in PFS wants to play a Goblin, but they still don't let you. And it's not just any old boon. It a special boon for special people, like only 2 people in the world get to.

GIVE ME GOBLINS! OR GIVE ME DEATH!

[Scott Wilhelm]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Errant Inlad wrote:

Slyme wrote:

Goblin is not a PFS legal race without a boon, and I do not have access to that boon.

Welp, that's a bit unfortunate. I'm unfamiliar with PFS rules. If PFS legal, the Strangler brawler is worth looking into. Grants you sneak attack on grapple checks (Might be less DPR than getting standard SA, I dunno)

Oh, it sure is!

Everyone in PFS wants to play a Goblin, but they still don't let you. And it's not just any old boon. It a special boon for special people, like only 2 people in the world get to.

GIVE ME GOBLINS! OR GIVE ME DEATH!

I have half a mind to play a Goblin anyway, just to show'em.

I would play a Halfling with Fleet of Foot, give him a Goblin name, and if the GM fails to call him a Goblin, pick my nose and flick a booger at him. Get everyone into a group photo with us giving the finger to Paizo.com!

My Halfling-actually-Goblin will be named Flippy Bird!

I have 2 builds in mind intended for a Goblin: a Grendadier Alchemist and a MOMS Monk with Panther and Snake Styles, Roll With It, and a Crown of Swords. He'll run around the battlefield provoking attacks of opportunity, he'll hit you back with Panther Claw. If your attack misses, he gets an AoO from Snake Fang. If your attack hits, he gets to Roll with It and the Crown sicks a Spiritual Sword at you. With Roll With It, he gets to pick the direction he rolls off in, trigging more AoOs and more Retaliatory Strikes. He'll be a little green pinball, bouncing off his foes lighting them up!

[Slyme]

Major Form: Tiger wrote:

While in this form, you gain a base speed of 40 feet, low-light vision, scent (30 feet), two claws (2d4 damage) and a bite (2d6 damage), the grab ability with both your bite and claw attacks, and pounce.

The way it is written it does not say it changes with your size...so the common consensus in all the weretouched shifter discussions I have read is that RAW you keep the damage of the form, and PFS is 100% RAW. RAI, I am sure they just overlooked the fact that you could make a small race weretouched character, but unless they put out a FAQ or errata changing it, right now you keep the damage.

I'll probably just drop the concept regardless, 1st edition organized play is winding down thanks to 2nd edition coming out soon, so I probably won't get a chance to play the character much anyways.