How can Paizo improve its relationship with game stores? Does Paizo need to?
What about the VTT community? Can they participate with Free RPG Day? Better VTT material?
Any outside the box ideas?
The purpose of this thread is to help discuss and capture suggestions for Paizo about how to evolve their approach to reaching out to the RPG community in the 21st century to grow the number of people playing Pathfinder.
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DFW area (big!) ...
No matter how much I advertised with very attractive ads and adjusted my strategy, I simply could not get enough players at local game stores. Yet, D&D 5e groups had no trouble.
Online is a totally different story. I have no trouble building groups that use VTT.
So, is this reflective of a relationship problem with local game stores -- and does it matter?
For the last Free RPG Day, the PDF for We Be Super Goblins (I think it was) was not a available until after the event was over.
So, the VTT community was left out. Not sure how to fix that. Maybe, just like for all the other modules and APs, we need to assume everyone is on their honor.
I prefer buying PDFs rather than books. They are easier to carry around. Now, I also use them for VTT.
I pretty much don't have any reason to go into game stores anymore.
I can provide a richer VTT experience than I can with in-person table top games (lighting, FOW, etc.).
I asked one store if I could setup a VTT there and invite local players to bring their laptops. Most players I know have the books and like to roll physical dice. In-person even with VTT, they could do that.
The answer from the store was no. Nothing's really changed from a revenue point of view. Still potential to sell all that physical stuff I just listed.
Another problem with game stores is that they expect to make their fortune off of the, say, 5 players and GM that show up every week at their store to play -- rather than the general population that becomes motivated to buy the same stuff because of all the fun we're having.
Yet another part of the problem is that game stores are completely out of the loop and feel threatened by PDF sales.
I think the answer to that problem is to sell gift or prepaid cards through game stores and offer a discount (or other insentive) for using them to buy PDFs from Paizo.
What has been your experience? Thoughts?
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For the last Free RPG Day, the PDF for We Be Super Goblins (I think it was) was not a available until after the event was over.
So, the VTT community was left out. Not sure how to fix that. Maybe, just like for all the other modules and APs, we need to assume everyone is on their honor.
On this point, Free RPG Day is an event specifically for the purpose of promoting LGSs. It is run by a distributor of physical product for the purpose of driving traffic to local game stores. Participating publishers have to agree not to make the Free RPG Day product available anywhere else, in print or PDF, until July 1st.
I see. Well, I GMed for the last RPG day. I had players who drove a long way to play. I was quite moved how much it meant to them.
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No matter how much I advertised with very attractive ads and adjusted my strategy, I simply could not get enough players at local game stores. Yet, D&D 5e groups had no trouble.
Do what I did - I responded to an ad in my FLGS that wanted players for a 5e game. I joined them and a few months later the playtest went live. I offered to run the playtest for the group and they agreed. Now they are eagerly awaiting the release of second edition, so I have effectively converted several people, though we still play our 5e game alternating weeks and will continue to do so for a long time no doubt.
Don't fight the powerhouse that is 5e; instead, use its strength (lots and lots of players) to your advantage to find and bring more people into Pathfinder.
Contributor
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No matter how much I advertised with very attractive ads and adjusted my strategy, I simply could not get enough players at local game stores. Yet, D&D 5e groups had no trouble.
It sounds like people might be disinterested in Pathfinder for whatever reason, whether lack of name recognition (PF will never catch up to D&D there) or Pathfinder's reputation as a complex, heavy system.
The latter issue might be solved with a revised and redesigned system that's meant to be more approachable for new players... I'm not sure if they're thinking about doing one of those, though.
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I find there are a lot of players, especially 5E players who have little to no Pathfinder experience have been, for lack of a better word, “brainwashed” to think that Pathfinder is unwieldy and unnecessarily complex, but if you can introduce them to the game a little at a time over the course of a few weeks or months, they overcome that perspective fairly quickly and really enjoy the depth of character that is possible. Course the challenge is getting them to try it out. Like described above, joining their 5E game gets you into their circle and exposure to a wider group of players. Most gamers are more open to trying other games outside their primary ones when they are comfortable with those involved. If they see you involved in 5E, they will be more open to trying Pathfinder as an alternative. Plus, you get to expand your gameplay into another system as well which can improve both your general play skill and GM skill if you do that. For a GM of any game, one of the best ways to get better is exposure to more diverse GMs from who, you can “steal” new ideas and techniques.
No matter how much I advertised with very attractive ads and adjusted my strategy, I simply could not get enough players at local game stores. Yet, D&D 5e groups had no trouble.It sounds like people might be disinterested in Pathfinder for whatever reason, whether lack of name recognition (PF will never catch up to D&D there) or Pathfinder's reputation as a complex, heavy system.
The latter issue might be solved with a revised and redesigned system that's meant to be more approachable for new players... I'm not sure if they're thinking about doing one of those, though.
I really can't figure out what it is for the game store in-person thing. As a GM, I find Pathfinder challenging with all the 3rd party material available plus the rule books -- but players should have no trouble.
Getting players on Discord for VTT is absolutely no trouble.
Honestly, without a computer and the Internet -- and a bunch of PDF files -- I don't think I could GM Pathfinder. Just too much material to reference.
But, on the other hand, that's what I think makes Pathfinder lots of fun -- at least for VTT. More fun than D&D ...
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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If you GM a Pathfinder game, there's no requirement to use any subset of additional materials. You can run a game using just the Core Rulebook if you want, or just Paizo products, or Just the hardcover RPG line from Paizo, with GM permission needed for any other material, or any combination of material you're comfortable with.
If you GM a Pathfinder game, there's no requirement to use any subset of additional materials. You can run a game using just the Core Rulebook if you want, or just Paizo products, or Just the hardcover RPG line from Paizo, with GM permission needed for any other material, or any combination of material you're comfortable with.
Exactly what I was thinking. Also. Any system that has 10 years under the belt will have a library of material to choose from.
If you GM a Pathfinder game, there's no requirement to use any subset of additional materials. You can run a game using just the Core Rulebook if you want, or just Paizo products, or Just the hardcover RPG line from Paizo, with GM permission needed for any other material, or any combination of material you're comfortable with.
That exactly what I did when I first GMed Pathfinder a few years ago. Everyone involved was new to the game so I restricted the rules to the Core Rulebook with the promise that as we played and got more experience I would open up more books for the players to use. By the time the party hit 4th level not only were all Paizo options on the table (except for Gunslingers) but I had a player using a third-party class (a Nightblade). This solution worked out well for us.
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What's the point of playing the 3600 feats 5000 spells two archetypes with the same name because the authors themselves got lost game when you limit people to core material only? Not only does that shaft some classes more than others (face it, a Fighter with access to Weapon Master's Handbook is a totally different animal from a core-only Fighter, core Rogue and Monk are useless, etc. etc.) but the wealth and scope of player-side options is one of the only two advantages PF1 has over 5e (the other being adventure/setting support).
If you want to play a core-only game, 5E is superior in almost every imaginable respect. Better balanced, easier to learn and run.
And the "GM vets" flat out doesn't work, when the already work-intensive GM'ing needs to be burdened with knowing all the player-side options so that she can vet them and spot sneaky "item X and feat Y are harmless separately, but combined they blow the game up" combos.
I mean, square pegs, round holes.
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...wealth and scope of player-side options is one of the only two advantages PF1 has over 5e (the other being adventure/setting support).
If you want to play a core-only game, 5E is superior in almost every imaginable respect..
I think you’ll find that not everyone chooses their game preferences using the same parameters and would not agree with your assessment. Choosing one over the other is not a zero-sum analysis.
If you GM a Pathfinder game, there's no requirement to use any subset of additional materials. You can run a game using just the Core Rulebook if you want, or just Paizo products, or Just the hardcover RPG line from Paizo, with GM permission needed for any other material, or any combination of material you're comfortable with.That exactly what I did when I first GMed Pathfinder a few years ago. Everyone involved was new to the game so I restricted the rules to the Core Rulebook with the promise that as we played and got more experience I would open up more books for the players to use. By the time the party hit 4th level not only were all Paizo options on the table (except for Gunslingers) but I had a player using a third-party class (a Nightblade). This solution worked out well for us.
What I've done is allow all Paizo rule books plus anything on the d20pfsrd website that was appropriate for PCs. It's manageable since I use a computer and the Internet.
Yes, that's true. I could GM an in-person tabletop game without either a computer nor the Internet by limiting the material. So, then, I take it back. You are all right. I could still GM Pathfinder and would choose to do so (if I could locate players).
Again, with VTT and Discord, that's no problem. It works, so I do it. I do sometimes miss doing in-person games -- but overall I like VTT better.
Paizo should develop a better system for game matching for both local traditional tabletop and VTT games.
I'm currently using Discord to find players for my VTT group, and that is working great. I have no complaints. What amazes me is that the Pathfinder RPG Discord server only recently passed 4,000 members.
Almost tens times that number just recently bought that $18 bundle of all(?) the Pathfinder RPG books (in PDF).
For traditional tabletop, online with Paizo's website just doesn't attract enough traffic for advertising and recruiting for local in-person games.
I ran an ad for about 2 months. Kind of broke some ground because it was normally just used by the Pathfinder Society. Had a very friendly and supportive email exchange with Paizo customer support.
Growing these online resources, I think, is key to helping to expand or retain Paizo's customer base.
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Paizo should develop a better system for game matching for both local traditional tabletop and VTT games.
Things like that are more traditionally developed by the community. Also, generally it is not the developer that influences participation, but the local community. The problem isn’t so much that there isn’t a central app, but more so that local communities have their own preferences of what to use. Meetup, Facebook groups, Warhorn, Slack, Discord, custom webpages, etc. are all successful tools to bring players together. Would it be great if everyone used the same medium? Of course, but for ever person who says app ‘X’ is the best one to use, there is at least one person who says they hate it and prefer to use ‘Y’. I find that is often one of the biggest factors in players finding each other.