I'm creating a Slayer character for a pirate-themed sandbox campaign already in progress, starting at 3rd level.
It's an Azata-blooded Aasimar (for the +2 DEX and CHA, and darkvision) with the following stats (20-point buy): 14 STR, 16 DEX, 10 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
So far I'm taking Toughness, Studied sneak attacker and Improved Feint (from the deceptive ranger list, bypassing pre-reqs) for feats.
Traits include Trustworthy, Reactionary and Dangerously Curious (with the Pride drawback to get 3 traits).
This is likely to be a low-level campaign for a while, and since we're doing rotating DM duty I'll be DMing a lot, and only playing for a few sessions here and there.
I'm looking for alternative feat or trait ideas for 3rd level, and maybe for a few levels after that (4th and maybe 5th, for starters) or any other suggestions for changing my starting character-creation choices around. My feat selections seem fairly optimal, but there are so many tricky choices out there that it's hard to think of everything up front. Our next game is in 10 days' time, so I do have a little leeway before things get locked in place.
Thanks for any advice y'all can give me.
He has a 10 Constitution and a 10 Wisdom? Even with Toughness, his survivability chances are slim, at best.
Not to dissuade you, by any means. I have just never seen someone make Constitution and their Will save stat the dump stats... that is, um, bold.
Anyways, now that you have Improved Feint... three levels of Snakebite Striker Brawler increases your Sneak Attack damage right on track with Slayer, and allows you to feint as part of your move action, not instead of your move action.
After that, 4 levels of Scout Rogue gets you Sneak Attack on a charge. Combine it with Pirate and you can change direction during your charge.
Agreed, massive CHA score doesn't do anything a small feat investment can't do.
CON, meanwhile, is very important for holding your breath too!
Other than your stats, I think you probably want weapon finesse unless you are going ranged?
The Focused Study feat (I could be wrong, it's called something like that) would also be a great addition.
What do you envision your character doing in combat?
What are you trying to accomplish outside of combat?
Improved feint suggests you're trying to sneak attack in melee, slayers can focus on sneak attack, but their reduced progression makes this approach less effective then it is for rogues. I have a slayer build that I've helped develop for a friend that's optimized for her style of play. Which I'll include here for reference. It may or may not really fit what you're looking for though.
Blender (Slayer){Basic}
Key concepts: A Slayer that duel wields
Race: Ifrit
Race Trait: Desert Mirage
Class: Slayer(x)
Trait: Crusader(Faith), Exposed to Awfulness(campaign), Criminal(social)[Disable Device]
Drawback: Attached[flute]
Sneak Attack: 1d6(3rd), 2d6(5th), 3d6(6th), 4d6(9th), 5d6(12th), 6d6(15th), 7d6(18th)
Feats: Weapon Finesse(1st), Double Slice(3rd), Accomplished Sneak Attacker(5th), Power Attack(7th), Focused Target(9th), TW Rend(11th),
Slayer Talents: Ranger Combat Style[Two-weapon](2nd), Trap-Finding(4th), Ranger Combat Style[Two-weapon](6th), Combat Trick(8th), Ranger Combat Style[Two-weapon](10th), Opportunist(12th)
Bonus Feats: TW Fighting(2nd), Imp. TW Fighting(6th), Seething Hatred[Evil Outsiders](8th), G. TW Fighting(10th)
Suggested Feats: Divine Fighting Technique(Norgorber), Weapon Adept, Modified Weapon Proficiency, Inner Flame(7+), Blazing Aura(13+), Blistering Feint, Possessed Hand, Hand’s Autonomy
Suggested Gear: 2x +5 Agile Dual-Balanced Weapons, Bloodstained Gloves, Slayers robe, Lenses of the Predator's Gaze
Dipping Savage-Technologist barbarian is tailor-made for lightly-armored cutlass & flintlock TWF pirate antics.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
STR vs DEX
If I were to drop STR to 10, I could get a little more DEX, but then would be stuck using my feats on DEX to hit & damage. I'd have to drop it to 9 to push DEX from 14+2 to 16+2. It just seems like a 14 STR and 14+2 DEX is the best cost to point buy arrangement, and lets me spend feats on something else.
What to do in and out of combat?
This party needs a frontliner, so mostly that, with the INIT bonus, decent acrobatics skill and reasonable feinting to try to get some sneak attacks in. Archery as a backup, but without feat investment it isn't stellar. 14 STR and 14+2 DEX means this character is actually better at archery than melee, but the party needs melee more. Out of combat will be fun, since I've spent traits to add class skills and have skill points all over the place. It's face plus utility plus fun, basically.
Only a ten CON and WIS?
Yeah, I know, that kinda sucks. But since I need both STR and DEX, and desperately want both INT and CHA (even if the Slayer class doesn't really benefit from them much) that leaves two stats that don't get invested in. Oh, well. Let's just say it's a bold choice. Yeah, bold.
TWF or not?
This is also feat intensive, and the slayer just doesn't feel like he has that many feats to spare. And for what? An extra attack on full attack, but with (at best) -2 to hit and (probably) a smaller damage die? I know that once you get the full chain of TWF feats, you can be a real Dice-o-Matic, with studied attack and sometimes sneak attack added on to each attack, but that eats a lot of feats.
Why so much CHA and INT?
Having 14+2 CHA is probably overkill. But I love having mad skillz and being a party face. And I'm looking forward to intimidating and bluffing/feinting my way to glory. So I dunno. I could chip a couple of points off CHA and put them in CON or WIS. But no way am I going to dump CHA like I see so often advocated on these boards. Any self-respecting pirate needs CHA to separate himself from the riff-raff. <g>
And the 14 INT? Skills, baby, skills.
I could see taking the Amateur Gunslinger feat. Hmmm... But anything with "technologist" in the title isn't in the cards for the current campaign.
Hi my name is Secret Wizard and I'm an advocate for sensible builds.
My main issue with the build is that feinting isn't very good unless you can still full attack afterwards, and it's particularly bad for ranged attacks if you don't have a dedicated build.
I think TWF is good for this build because it opens up the venue for TWF Feint, which is a cost effective way to feint past level 6, and it allows you to use a light shield for bashing + defence to be the party's frontliner.
A build like this would be obviously worse than an archer, but you can do well enough without that.
I recommend the following point buy:
S16 D14+2 C12 I10 W10 CH13
The following traits:
- Indomitable Faith (to Besmara of course!)
- Dangerously Curious (always useful)
- Extremely Fashionable (bonus to CHA skills across the board and really cool Pirate flavor! Plus it makes you get Diplomacy as a class skill.)
And the following featline, assuming Human:
LV1. TWF, Persuasive
LV2. ST: RCS – TWF Feint
LV3. Improved Shield Bash
LV4. ST: Unbalancing Trick
LV5. Focused Target
LV6. ST: RCS – Greater Feint, FCB ST: Combat Trick - Improved TWF
LV7. Accomplished Sneak Attacker
LV8. ST: Foil Scrutiny
LV9. Shield Slam
LV10. ST: RCS – Misdirection Tactics or Passing Trick, up to you
LV11. Shield Master
Sorry for the lengthy build, but I think this makes sure to give you as many options in combat to keep it interesting – Shield Slam to bull rush people off board, Unbalancing Trick to use your first attack either to feint or to trip according to what is more beneficial, a shield to get more defence, Greater Feint to open up the enemy to your party, etc.
This all being said, if you give up the feint angle, the Spire Diver archetype for a switch hitting build would also be pretty fun.
If you get Two-weapon Feint through the Deceptive Ranger combat style, do you still provoke attacks of opportunity without Improved Feint?
That looks like a cool option. Even though the accompanying attacks are gimped by not being first.
If you get Two-weapon Feint through the Deceptive Ranger combat style, do you still provoke attacks of opportunity without Improved Feint?
That looks like a cool option. Even though the accompanying attacks are gimped by not being first.
you dont normally provoke when you feint nor is that what improved feint does. Also, I believe you can attack with your offhand first, replacing it with the feint.
The ultimate cheese is Ranger Combat Style – Achaekek Faithful, which allows you to pick up Improved TWF Feint without ANY of the prereq feats.
Where's the cheese? Isn't ignoring pesky prereqs the idea behind RCS?
Well, I'm sure they didn't mean to add the functionalities of three feats into Imp. TWF Feint's text XD
I think focusing on dirty tricks to blind your enemies is better than going for a feint build. The bounty hunter archetype is pretty good for this.
Well, I'm sure they didn't mean to add the functionalities of three feats into Imp. TWF Feint's text XD
Which feats? It only makes TWFeint obsolete. Combat Expertise was never anything but a tax feat in the first place, and you still need to use two-weapon fighting, which means you'll still want the TWF feat and probably Improved TWF, too.
All of the Ranger Combat Style feats can be had by a slayer while ignoring pre-reqs. It's making me think twice about keeping a high DEX when I could just max STR and dump DEX and still get the most important TWF feats necessary.
But y'all are right, if I grab two-weapon feint without two-weapon fighting, I'm going to be looking at hefty penalties to attack.
I'm almost to the point of thinking that taking Improved Feint (for move-action Feint) is a waste of a feat. I like the idea of move-action feint to gain sneak attack dice on the subsequent attack, but once my 3rd-level slayer hits 6th, that'll interfere with full attacks.
Maybe I should look again at Improved Dirty Trick, though I'm not sure whether any Ranger styles will give that.
Assuming I don't go for either archery or two-weapon fighting, what feats would be good to boost my combat capabilities and maybe make it easier to get sneak attack damage (like through flanking or gaining initiative in the first round of combat)?
Besmara's fighting style includes improved and quick dirty trick. But I recommend you pickup the dirty tricks feat-line with your own feats using the dirty fighting feat to meet the prerequisites.
You can save the ranger fighting style for either two weapon fighting or sword and shield, depending on your flavor.
All of the Ranger Combat Style feats can be had by a slayer while ignoring pre-reqs. It's making me think twice about keeping a high DEX when I could just max STR and dump DEX and still get the most important TWF feats necessary.
But y'all are right, if I grab two-weapon feint without two-weapon fighting, I'm going to be looking at hefty penalties to attack.
I'm almost to the point of thinking that taking Improved Feint (for move-action Feint) is a waste of a feat. I like the idea of move-action feint to gain sneak attack dice on the subsequent attack, but once my 3rd-level slayer hits 6th, that'll interfere with full attacks.
Maybe I should look again at Improved Dirty Trick, though I'm not sure whether any Ranger styles will give that.
Assuming I don't go for either archery or two-weapon fighting, what feats would be good to boost my combat capabilities and maybe make it easier to get sneak attack damage (like through flanking or gaining initiative in the first round of combat)?
If you don't TWF, not even for shield bashing... Then sneak attack doesn't matter as much as Power Attack does.
I was thinking, what about going TWF with the Canny Tumble + Nimble Mongoose combo?
It's not feinting but it's very similar!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wasn't aware of that combo, but I think you meant "circling" mongoose. And those are some hefty feat prerequisites. But that is a fun and flavorful combo for getting access to sneak attack.
The reason I like Dirty Tricks is because they automatically benefit your team against the enemy too. Feinting and this combo are good for the person using them, but not so helpful for your party.
I did mean Circling Mongoose! Thanks!
I like Dirty Tricks too and Underhanded Ranger Combat Style is cool.
|
If you want to keep the high Cha for Intimidate then consider menacing style to grab shatter defences at level 6. Perhaps a one level dip in thug rogue.
Or with only cha 13 to take eldritch heritage to get a flanking familiar - Perhaps a blueringed octopus bodyguard familiar?
Another way to flank is Press to the Wall which should not be to dificult to use on a ship. Especially if you can get above the enemy using the rigging and flank the enemy against the deck.
I believe circling mongoose is a trap. If you miss one attack (roll a low dice) the benefit is lost. And it requires a lot of otherwise useless feats to get - because you will use Acrobatics and rarely mobility and spring attack don’t combine with circling mongoose because they are to different full round actions.
OK, I've rebuilt the character. Dropped one point of CHA (13+2) for 2 points of CON. I'll make up the lost point of CHA at lvl 4.
Also dumped feinting for dirty tricks. I looked at TWF, but it just doesn't seem to be worth it, since I won't have a reliable method of making foes flat-footed to get sneak attack. I did keep Studied Sneak Attacker for +1d6 sneak attack damage, but replaced my earlier feats with Dirty Fighting and Slayer talent (Underhanded ranger) Improved Dirty Trick and will go for more dirty trick feats in future.
It looks like the best dirty trick is to shoot for the blinded condition.
It's a pity that Circling Mongoose isn't on the underhanded ranger list. I'll never have the prereqs for that. Looks cool, though.
OK, I've rebuilt the character. Dropped one point of CHA (13+2) for 2 points of CON. I'll make up the lost point of CHA at lvl 4.
Also dumped feinting for dirty tricks. I looked at TWF, but it just doesn't seem to be worth it, since I won't have a reliable method of making foes flat-footed to get sneak attack. I did keep Studied Sneak Attacker for +1d6 sneak attack damage, but replaced my earlier feats with Dirty Fighting and Slayer talent (Underhanded ranger) Improved Dirty Trick and will go for more dirty trick feats in future.
It looks like the best dirty trick is to shoot for the blinded condition.
It's a pity that Circling Mongoose isn't on the underhanded ranger list. I'll never have the prereqs for that. Looks cool, though.
Make sure to leave some room for Surprise Maneuver! A little bit of a win-more feat but very effective.
|
|
I looked at TWF, but it just doesn't seem to be worth it, since I won't have a reliable method of making foes flat-footed to get sneak attack.
Remember that it isn’t flatfooted, but the denied dex bonus which triggers the sneak attack damage.
Other Conditions like Blinded, Cowering, Climbing, Helpless, Attacker is Invisibel, Paralysed, Pinned, Stunned and Unconsious also denies dex bonus.
Surprise maneuver looks cool, something to look forward to as early as 5th level (studied sneak attacker giving me an extra d6 of sneak and dirty fighting giving a prereq equivalent of Combat Expertise).
Khan, thanks for that reminder about the blinded condition. If I can get it to last more than one round, that'll let me land sneak attacks! Later on Quick Dirty Trick will be a good choice.
I'm starting to like this dirty trick slayer concept.
Dirty Fighting does not help to fulfill the Combat Expertise prereq of Surprise Maneuver, as it's neither an "improved combat maneuver feat", nor a feat "that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites".