Does one polymorph spell override another one?

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm curious as to how two polymorph spells with different durations would interact.

The rules for polymorph spells (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic/#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph) reads, in part,

"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

What I want to know is what the phrase "Taking the place of" means in the following situation:

My Wizard PC would like to use the Polymorph Any Object spell to become a medium sized dragon, as per the spell Form of the Dragon I, with a permanent duration. Now, there may be some times when becoming humanoid again would be convenient. If Alter Self was cast, I understand that I can choose to have the Alter Self spell override the Polymorph Any Object.

What I need to know is, does the duration of permanent on the Polymorph Any Object dragon form continue after the Alter Self spell expires, or is it gone?

I imagine there exist someplace rules for explaining spells with different durations overlapping, but I cannot find them.

[OmniMage]

I think you would render your dragon form irrelevant until the duration of the new polymorph effect expires. So once the new polymorph effect expires, the permanent duration of Polymorph any Object should resume.

Core Rulebook p. 209, emphasis mine

Quote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can

sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same
recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the
series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are
actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become
irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

[Diego Rossi]

For me taking the place of the old spell means that the old spell is removed and the new spell takes effect, so the previous Polymorph Any Object spell is cancelled and will not resume.

[MrCharisma]

OmniMage wrote:

I think you would render your dragon form irrelevant until the duration of the new polymorph effect expires. So once the new polymorph effect expires, the permanent duration of Polymorph any Object should resume.

Core Rulebook p. 209, emphasis mine

Quote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can

sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same
recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the
series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are
actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become
irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

+1

Since Polymorph Any Object isn't removed or dispelled it will resume when Alter Self ends.

[Diego Rossi]

MrCharisma wrote:

OmniMage wrote:

I think you would render your dragon form irrelevant until the duration of the new polymorph effect expires. So once the new polymorph effect expires, the permanent duration of Polymorph any Object should resume.

Core Rulebook p. 209, emphasis mine

Quote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can

sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same
recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the
series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are
actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become
irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

+1

Since Polymorph Any Object isn't removed or dispelled it will resume when Alter Self ends.

Let's emphasize a different part of that quote:

Quote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

We are speaking of different spells, not of the same spell.

Polymorph any object and Alter self both fall under the "Transmutation - Polymorph" heading, but that doesn't make them the same spell.

Besides that, we have a specific rule for multiple polymorph spells:

Quote:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

AFAIK, in English, taking the place of someone or something means removing the old person/item and placing in the same place a new person/item. Even if the new person/item is removed, the old person/item will not aoutomatically return.

[Lelomenia]

If you PAO on someone who had a permanent duration PAO effect with a short duration PAO, would you recover your previous polymorph afterwards? That would trigger “same spell” language, but if in that case it worked as most recent polymorph effect “taking the place of the effect”, but not dispelling the spell, it would seem that “taking the place” of an effect but not the spell is a thing.

[RUMBLETiGER]

Polymorph Any Object says "This spell functions like Greater Polymorph"...

Greater Polymorph says "This spell functions as... Polymorph...Beast Shape VI... Elemental Body III... Alter Self... Plant Shape II... Form of the Dragon I..."

I think the argument of Same vs. Different spells doesn't apply, PAO says it functions like these different spells. Mechanically, they should operate under the rules as if they were the same spell.

I just needed someone to point me to the rules on how overlapping spells with different durations interacted.

[OmniMage]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's emphasize a different part of that quote:

Quote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

We are speaking of different spells, not of the same spell.

Polymorph any object and Alter self both fall under the "Transmutation - Polymorph" heading, but that doesn't make them the same spell.

In this case, I think "The same spell" was a poor choice of words.

Quote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

The first bolded emphasizes effects, not spells. The second bold doesn't say it has to be the same spell...

You know what, I'll stop trying to rulelawyering. We can be here all week.

I think I stick to my stance that the last polymorph spell suppresses the others. When the last polymorph effect expires, you go find that next last polymorph effect that still has duration and so on. I think its more consistent with the rules.

[Ryze Kuja]

Both Polymorph effects would affect you, and it's the player's choice as to which one suppresses the other (usually the last effect gained).