JDnator |
My group is only 3 strong, we normally play fantasy board games but just recently i decided to up the ante and give the pathfinder beginner's box a go.
obviously we loved it and now i am eager to try some first steps into building my own dungeon. however, it means that they are only a party of 2....
with this in mind, I don't want to ramble too much so i will try and get to the point.
I purchased the NPC codex as I wanted a few humanoid encounters. (plus my friends aren't quite used to the idea that they don't have to attack anything that moves yet). however in practice, even the low level NPC's can be quite tough for a pair of 1st level adventurers.
I'm trying to find a good balance so all the fights aren't just 2 Vs 1s. i wondered if just giving them for example some potions that offer some form of DR would suffice. is a potion of "stoneskin" something that a 1st level fighter can use?
should i encourage them to be more creative (is setting some traps or bringing some thrown items a good idea? which ones?)
or is there a better way, what other player aids are recommended.
thanks for your time, for any answers/ recommendations.
Dasrak |
A small number of low-level player characters is very tricky to balance for, so I understand your difficulties here. It can be even harder if your group is fairly new and inexperienced.
One useful approach is to consider circumstance and positioning as much as the adversaries themselves. For instance, what if the battle takes place on a narrow rope bridge where enemies can only approach in single file? Or what if you encounter a guard on patrol and as you fight the other guards arrive on the scene at different times? This can create a very different dynamic than if you'd thrown all the enemies at the party at the same time.
Another possibility is to give every player a henchman, a 1st level warrior that follows them around and fights on their behalf. That might give the players a little bit more to fall back on in combat, although if they lack a healer you'll probably need to drop more potions for them to compensate.
i wondered if just giving them for example some potions that offer some form of DR would suffice. is a potion of "stoneskin" something that a 1st level fighter can use?
A potion of stoneskin is problematic since it would be very expensive, worth 1300 gp. It'd be significantly more valuable than the treasure the party would be likely to acquire at these levels.
should i encourage them to be more creative (is setting some traps or bringing some thrown items a good idea? which ones?)
While you should definitely encourage creativity, it's unlikely to solve your problems on its own. Traps can work, but unless you have special class features or abilities they tend to be too time consuming to set up to practical. Thrown items are very useful; Alchemist's Fire is one of the best ones.
Dave Justus |
2 Players is challenging for even experienced players and GMs. At 1st level this is even tougher, since there is no margin for error, a bad roll or two and someone is 'down'. Beyond that, 2 1st level NPC characters with regular (not NPC classes) and PC wealth against 2 1st level PC characters is pretty much an even fight, meaning 50-50 who wins and who looses, a very challenging encounter. 2 against 1 is closer to what typical encounter would be like. To have more numbers, you need weaker things like kobolds, giant rats and stuff like that.
Adding in an effect like 'stoneskin' or something isn't really going to solve it, or it might for some encounters, but won't help much with others and won't scale well over time.
Typical suggestions for dealing with few players are either upping the power of the PCs (adding 2 levels to your PCs, and then giving them 'regular' fights that are designed for 4 PCs for example) or letting players control more than one character (each of your players runs two characters, giving you a typical group of 4.) Another option is imposing a blanket 'negative' effect on all their opponents to balance the scales a bit -2 to attacks, damage, saves and DCs of abilities for all their foes would probably come pretty close to letting 2 PCs deal with most encounters normally faced by 4.
These solutions have the advantage of letting you use predesigned modules, something that isn't a bad idea for a new GM. Designing encounters on your own is a tricky thing, and very tough to do well without a lot of experience and knowledge of the game. I'd recommend getting some of the low level Pathfinder Society Modules and running them before you try and make your own.
And of course, the best solution is to invite more players to your group. 4 players and 4 PCs is typically the most fun gaming experience.
Most important thing is, as long as you are all having fun it is a 'win' and if you really want to design your own dungeons go for it. Just make sure your friends know that you are learning too, and sometimes it will go wrong as you learn, but those can be fun experiences as well.
Meirril |
Pathfinder really is a game about using an entire party of characters. You need a certain number of bodies to make encounters work. Typically 4-6 players.
My suggestion would be for you, the GM to create 2 more characters to round out the party. Write a very brief history for the 2 characters and give them some motivations. The whole thing should be short. Like less than 1 page. Make sure the party has the basics down. Someone that is focused on healing. Someone that is focused on arcane magic. Maybe 1 character that handles traps. Or don't. Take the 2 extra characters and explain to the 2 players that these are NPCs to round out the party and they are your characters but you want each player to control one of them each game. When they level up, you the GM will make decisions. In the party they won't make decisions, but if they are treated unfairly they will leave.
This way you have 2 more bodies that don't know everything you do. You can also switch who controls which NPC so both players get a taste of playing both characters. And if you want to, you can switch out the NPCs when you feel their time with the party is done.
Dave Justus |
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I will add that while 2 characters per player is a perfectly viable mechanical solution, it can be less than optimum from a role playing perspective.
It is difficult to 'get into character' when it is two characters you are trying to get into. Intra-party discussions can be weird with sometimes one player talking to 'himself' and similar problems exist.
Having one of the characters be more of a cohort/servent for the primary character for each player can help, giving the players a focus character at least. Alternately, having the players control both characters in combat but the GM control them out of combat sometimes works (although if the secondary characters are talking to an NPC you get the same 'talking to yourself' problem.)
If the GM takes some, or complete, control of a party character their are other issues to avoid as well. The 'GMPC' becoming the star of the show is an issue that needs to be avoided.
JiaYou |
If the players don't mind being at least partial casters, Druid, Sylvan Sorcerer, Nature/Lunar Oracle, and Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor start with animal companions, and those can do some SERIOUS damage at low levels. Mad Dog Barbarian can do that too.
That way you avoid the conversation issue and you'll frankly STEAMROLL CR1 encounters.
Ozzmodious |
My regular gaming group for years has been two players with me DMing. I have handled the issue by allowing a 25 point buy starting with max wealth for there starting class. To make the fights "fair" I take the average of the parties to hit and ac and either alter or have them face creatures that face that average with either a + or - to those scores depending on how challenging I want the fight.
Another thing I do, which is a house rule, is use the armor DR system to make armor actually useful. In essence you take 1/2 the armor value, that is not magical, and convert it to DR/- round down. Example, a chain shirt's armor is 2 with a DR 2/- while Full Plate has an armor value of 5 with a DR of 4/-.
JiaYou |
How are you finding the armor DR system working in practice? To me, I thought it was interesting but seemed to gimp low-damage multiattackers (certain ACs and ranged/TWFs) and overly reward THFs (now my Warpriest is even MORE likely to hit you with a Holy Ice Greatsword and still do 2d6+15 to you at level 4/5)
Toolbag |
I concede that 2 players running two characters each causes some issues concerning the roleplaying aspect of talking to themselves.
I also agree that the GM-PC carries its own problems. However, I have seen it work on one occasion in that whenever the 2 players stalled and became indecisive (which was about every other round by the way) the GM simply had the GM-PC perform the dumbest or worst possible action one could think of...This was an incentive for the regular players to step up and participate so that the situation didn't get worse through the GM-PC doing stupid stuff.
On another tack, where are you located JDnator? Perhaps I could make a character and join the group thus solving your problem.
baggageboy |
One thing you could do is something I had been considering doing for a similar problem. Balancing an encounter at level 1 is hard. it's very easy to make solid characters that trash a weak encounter, but even weak things can, if the dice decide, end up very deadly. At the same time often you want your players to get the feel of a character progressing from level 1.
My solution, start the characters at level 1.5. What's that? Well pathfinder unchained has some rules for breaking up level progression into pieces. Using those rules I set up a way to make player characters less susceptible to the odd crit ending their existence early. You can look up the rules for more details, but I'll share my spin on it in a spoiler.
In addition I suggest starting characters with a free potion of CLW or two. Don't just give them wealth as they'll be tempted to spend it on gear.
Your first level is done as normal with full hit points. The .5 level works this way. You will declare your next class level, and you get the following:
- Saves as if you are level 2
- Half your skill points (rounded down)
- Half your hit points (rounded down)
All other features (including favored class bonuses) will be gained when the characters reach level 2.
So for clarity here is an example of a fighter with a DEX, CON and INT of 12 declaring his next level also being fighter.
Hit points: 11+ (11/2) = 16.5 > 16
Saves: 3:1:1 + 1:0:0 = 4:1:1
Skill Points: 3 + (3/2) = 4.5 > 4
Here's the same fighter but declaring his second level as rogue.
Hit points: 11+ (9/2) = 15.5 > 15
Saves: 3:1:1 + 0:2:0 = 3:2:1
Skill Points: 3 + (7/2) = 6.5 > 6
Watery Soup |
The villains you find premade should be considered suggestions, and if your PCs are having a tough time, there's no shame in nerfing the enemy. Instead of fighting kobolds with swords, they can fight insane kobolds who think their wielded pots and pans are holy avenger greatswords.
When I play with friends at work (during lunch), I don't even give the villains a set number of hit points - I joke that they have "45 minutes of hit points."
I advocate that this is better than doing permanent things to the PCs such as giving their armor DR or inflating their stats - as those things will continue nerfing encounters for the whole lifetime of the character.
NPCs are okay, but it's just as easy to tip the scales by making the enemies worse as it is to make the party stronger. Obviously you don't get to slay dragons or explode fireballs or do other iconic fantasy epic battles, but players shouldn't expect that at level 1.
Allowing PCs to take advantage of structural advantages (like narrow ravines or high ground or random equipment they find) is great and will create a real sense of accomplishment if they can take down a serious threat. You can nerf the enemy's intelligence so the villains charge through the doorway one by one, or the villain with a ranged weapon insists on firing at the fighter taking cover (and ignoring the wizard standing in the open).
Derklord |
even the low level NPC's can be quite tough for a pair of 1st level adventurers.
Ok, some encounter design basics: Each PC is worth a certain amount of XP, just like an NPC - for a character with PC wealth and levels in a PC class, their CR is equal to their total level, i.e. each of your PCs is currently worth 400XP. Together, they're worth 800 XP. Now, a fight agains enemies worth the same amount of XP would have both sides be about equally strong, i.e. each side has about a 50% chance to win. That's a APL+4 enounter (that's shorthand for "challenge rating = average party level +4").
Now, in Pathfinder the players are the heroes - they are supposed to win almost every fight. For that reason, every fight should be slanted towards the PCs (except for maybe a final boss or something), so normally APL+3 should be the maximum.
According to the CRB, an APL-1 encounter is supposed to be "easy", an APL+0 encounter is supposed to be an "average" encounter, APL+1 "challenging", APL+2 "hard", and APL+3 "epic".
To find out what enemies to use, look at this table, and sum the XP numbers for the type of encounter you want to do. For instance, for an APL+0 encounter you would look at the first row (PC level 1), CR+0 column (it says "100"), and double that (because you have two players). So, an appropriate APL+0 encoutner for your party would have 200 XP, which could for instance be four CR 1/8 enemies, two CR 1/4 enemies, a CR 1/4 and two CR 1/8 enemies, a CR 1/3 and a CR 1/6 enemy, or a single CR 1/2 enemy. You don't need to match it exactly (e.g. 3 CR 1/8 and a CR 1/6 enemy would be OK), though - the CR system isn't an exact science.
Ozzmodious |
How are you finding the armor DR system working in practice? To me, I thought it was interesting but seemed to gimp low-damage multiattackers (certain ACs and ranged/TWFs) and overly reward THFs (now my Warpriest is even MORE likely to hit you with a Holy Ice Greatsword and still do 2d6+15 to you at level 4/5)
In practiced I and the players have liked it. The reasoning is that most mobs are low damage multi-attackers. Granted when they do faced armored mobs, usually humanoid, the archers do get hit the hardest but Pathfinder for the most part does favor archers to a degree. Though my group is small so they usually plan there characters together and are typically some magic class hybrid of sorts to take care of there short comings. Example the game I'm running right now 1 of the players is an Arcane Archer Magus and has been laying the beat down with spells against high armored opponents.
Wheldrake |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMHO, the best thing you can do for a party of 2 (especially if they are non-optimised or inexperienced at Pathfinder) is to use this two-pronged approach:
1) Be sure that most or all adversaries have low damage potential, like using 1d4 or 1d6 weapons. This greatly reduces the chance of killing a PC in one hit.
2) The DM should nerf the adversaries by using non-optimal tactics: goblins who are busy tormenting seagulls or distracted by trying to open a pickle jar; skeletons that begin the encounter disassembled and take a few rounds to form their bones into a fighting form (and maybe remain slightly incomplete, lacking a second claw or having a movement penalty); giant beetles (or other vermin/animals) that are distracted because they are busy feeding on another adventurer's corpse; adversaries who are in the middle of a row, or even fighting each other when the PCs arrive; or even adversaries who were just recently in combat and are still suffering some hit point reduction.
Also remember that most adversaries won't fight to the death if they can possibly avoid it. Having an adversary use the "retreat" action after taking one hit can do wonders with giving the PCs a feeling of accomplishment. And if the adversaries are human, there might be a lot shouting, whingeing, threatening and pleading prior to actual combat.
It's really easy to use non-optimal tactics by playing up the ineptitude of the adversaries, either due to low intelligence/wisdom or because they are drunk, half asleep or whatever. Anything you do which makes the adversaries get separated from each other, arrive in staggered rounds, or lose actions doing something else besides swinging their weapons will help the PCs survive.
And don't forget that even if the PCs both go down, there can be a lot of other options besides killing the bleeding sods. Some adversaries will take prisoners, some might feel sorry about what they've done, or some other non-hostile NPC might show up at the right time to help out. The key is using a variety of solutions so it doesn't get stall, and keeping things fairly beleivable.
I would also suggest giving the PCs an extra feat, like the one that gives +3 hit points out of the gate. And access to a few healing potions.
Kimera757 |
My group is only 3 strong, we normally play fantasy board games but just recently i decided to up the ante and give the pathfinder beginner's box a go.
obviously we loved it and now i am eager to try some first steps into building my own dungeon. however, it means that they are only a party of 2....with this in mind, I don't want to ramble too much so i will try and get to the point.
I purchased the NPC codex as I wanted a few humanoid encounters. (plus my friends aren't quite used to the idea that they don't have to attack anything that moves yet). however in practice, even the low level NPC's can be quite tough for a pair of 1st level adventurers.
I'm trying to find a good balance so all the fights aren't just 2 Vs 1s. i wondered if just giving them for example some potions that offer some form of DR would suffice. is a potion of "stoneskin" something that a 1st level fighter can use?
should i encourage them to be more creative (is setting some traps or bringing some thrown items a good idea? which ones?)
or is there a better way, what other player aids are recommended.
thanks for your time, for any answers/ recommendations.
Could you give each player two characters? That would round out the party, filling roles, and enabling you to use "normal-sized" encounters. I would want to make sure the players see fighters, clerics, rogues, and wizards in action, then branch out as they become more skilled (in real life).
I am Nemesis |
These are all good suggestions, especially since I was going to suggest that each of the two players run two characters for a party of four. However, in the interest of gaming in general, I would definitely look for additional players as more people is just more fun.
i agree on all points w/ Toolbag. at the very least as a DM, run an NPC Healer/Cleric whose first action every combat is to cast sanctuary on himself. the DM conveniently forgets he's there until/unless one of the party needs saving. the NPC should have no other impact on the adventuring and should retire from the party around 4th or 5th level. by then the party should be able to invest in potions and wands much less being able to take a hit. good thread.