If a creature has an attack with a "rider", do you consider the rider a new attack or part of the original one?
For example, if a creature has an attack with the grab and constrict abilities, if the initial attack hits it gets a free grab attempt and if that succeeds it gets to apply its constrict damage. If the target, for example, had DR, would you subtract its DR once or twice?
I've always been told that "riders" are part of the original attack (in contrast, for example, to an ability like Cleave that gives you a new attack) but I'm curious whether others agree with this interpretation.
(This question arises out of a more specific thread related to the application of energy damage to a PC's clothing. If you are interested in that thread, you can find it here.)
I remember this coming up as a side comment and it depends on how the rider ability is worded. It was a question on energy resistance and if say you had Fire Resist 5, if it would apply to each instance of fire damage on the attack or if you added everything together and only applied the resistance once.
In your example, I believe DR would get to apply twice since the constrict damage occurs separately from the initial attack (Its even called out in the grab ability that the damage from the original attack resolves before you make the grapple check). They potentially even have different damage types since constrict damage is specifically bludgeoning and the grab could of come from a claw attack (which is piercing and slashing only)
So, unfortunately, it can only be answered on a case by case basis. I glanced through the post you linked to and it wasn't clear to me how/where a reduction in damage would of occurred more than once.
If I understand the black pudding's ability correctly. If say a character has acid resistance 10 and they get hit for 15 acid damage, they would take 5 acid damage if they failed the dc 21 reflex save, their armor and clothing will also take 5 acid damage. Since it states that the damage is the same as the damage the creature took, as opposed to how much damage was rolled.
Yes, the original situation that provoked the question wasn't about DR at all, but about whether a PC should get to save once or twice vs a Black Pudding's ability to damage his/her clothing and armor with its acid, once for the acid in the initial attack, and once for the acid in the constrict. The implications are: a) if they get two saves, their item hardness gets counted twice, and b) if they get two saves, the Black Pudding's corrosion ability (-4 to the save) would only apply to the second save. But all of this is a pretty unusual corner case, and discussed in detail in the other thread, so that's why I changed the example to just regular old DR for this particular post.
For what it's worth, I always thought that each separate attack roll should make something count as a separate attack (which would make this two: one for the initial attack, and one for the grab/constrict), but locally I've been overruled on this consistently by several different 5-star GMs, so I've accepted their ruling and now treat it is a single attack.
ah ok, I didn't see the part about constriction (as I said I only glanced over it). I agree with you that it would be two separate saves and the object's DR would get to apply twice.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the logic that it should all count as one attack. I mean, the pudding wouldn't even deal the constrict damage if it fails the grapple check. It might of hit somone and squeezed but because they didn't get a good grip on the person the squeeze didn't do anything.
The only thing I can think of that might lead someone to the conclusion that it's all part of the same attack is the way charging, pounce and grab all interact. But I think has more to do with the way pounce works then anything else.
I came here after following your previous thread (I'm interested in the topic of destroyed wealth and how it can be handled in home games versus in organized play.)
Before you brought it up I'd never heard of 'riders' on an attack and them being treated as the same hit for applications like DR and hardness. But I think I can understand how someone might come to that conclusion if they started by looking at sneak attack.
The actual rule on damage reduction is not very helpful.
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.
Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
When a damage reduction entry has a dash (—) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon that inflicts damage of either type overcomes this damage reduction.
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction, and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
Format: DR 5/silver; Location: Defensive Abilities.
At least hardness clarifies that it applies when 'damaged' instead of a broad statement on damage ignored.
In the combat section of the core rulebook we find a definition of damage;
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.
Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
Ability Damage: Certain creatures and magical effects can cause temporary or permanent ability damage (a reduction to an ability score).
The key line here is 'If your attack succeeds, you deal damage.' This helps add some consistency; a flaming dagger sneak attack only has one attack roll, so sneak attack damage, fire damage and weapon damage is all summed together of the purposes of DR/hardness. Cleave or a full attack have several attack rolls, so the damage happens once for every successful attack. The manyshot feat is the exception that proves the rule, it deals damage twice off a single attack and the feat clarifies that.
So in the case of grappling and constrict and grab; When a creature hits with a grab attacks, that is the first attack and will deal slam(?) damage as normal. Then it must succeed at a grapple check as permitted by the grab ability, combat manuvers are attacks so this is a second attack that will deal constrict damage if it succeeds. Two seperate attack rolls, two instances of damage, two applications of hardness/DR.
I agree: It depends.
In the specific case of a black pudding (or mudlord), it looks like two separate instance of damage, as has been mentioned above: the slam and then the constrict.
The attack and rider is this:
slam +8 (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid plus grab)
So all that damage occurs at the same time.
Then the grapple roll for the free grab occurs, but the damage has its own damage and rider:
constrict (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid)
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slam +8 (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid plus grab
ah, I think I see now where someone would get the idea that all of the damage should be added up and resistance would only apply once. They're seeing the damage listed like this and think that the grab is resolved before the damage is dealt, thanks to order of operations in math.
They see the above line and consider grab to look like
grab(constrict) [2d6+4+2d6 acid]
Then by substituting you get
slam +8 (2d6+4+2d6 acid +([2d6+4+2d6 acid])
However, grab tells us the damage is resolved before the result of the grapple attempt has been determined.
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
There are both advantages and disadvantages to this. If the attack makes them go unconscious, does stat damage(like str or dex) or imposes some other debilitating effect. This means the creature's CMD gets lowered prior to the grapple attempt, making it easier to grab someone. The disadvantage is that if the enemy has something like DR they would get to apply it against the attack and the constrict separately.
For what it's worth, I always thought that each separate attack roll should make something count as a separate attack (which would make this two: one for the initial attack, and one for the grab/constrict), but locally I've been overruled on this consistently by several different 5-star GMs, so I've accepted their ruling and now treat it is a single attack.
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
The grab ability (and constrict damage) is a separate action from the attack that triggered it. There is no way adding the damage together before DR or resistance would be correct.
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I'm in agreement with the majority here. Constrict is not rider damage. Constrict is a separate instance of damage, especially in this situation, where there is a second attack roll made (the grab attack). Even when constrict is applied to maintaining a grapple to damage, it's still separate damage and not a rider on the grapple damage. This is why things like Power Attack, enhancement bonuses from amulets, etc. all apply to constrict. If it's going to be ruled as rider damage, then it shouldn't also add those things twice.
Actual rider damage encompasses things like corrosive, flaming, frost, and other similar abilities. If you have something that adds an extra 1d6 fire damage on top of a flaming longsword, then assuming they stack, you end up with 1d8+1d6 fire+1d6 fire. That's a single attack/single instance of damage, so energy resistance would only apply once.
Sneak Attack is actually an even different category. It is part of the main damage of the attack. It is not separate damage. This is why Sneak Attack can help overcome DR. If you're dealing 1d4 weapon damage + 7d6 sneak attack against a creature with DR 5/- (that can take precision damage), you add the damage together before applying DR. I've seen it mistaken before that a GM has ruled the main attack can't deal damage, therefore no sneak attack applies, and that's just not how Pathfinder works. (Citation from Jason Bulmahn)