So, I'm playing a two-hander, melee-oriented, Oath of Vengeance, Tempered Champion Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. We're nearing the end of Book 1, and the DM has suggested I should make my build a little more tanky as the rest of the Party is not. We have brawler, gunslinger, and arcane trickster PCs, as well as an ecclesitheurge run by the DM. I'm strongly leaning towards Guardian for Mythic, but he will be limiting us to tier 5 to rein us in a little.
I've been looking at the EH Pit-Touched line as it would work in well from an RP perspective, but it's a hefty 4 feats to take full advantage of it:
Skill Focus, Diplomacy (which I can use as I'll be taking Antagonize)
Eldritch Heritage - Corrupting Touch. Can't see myself using it a lot.
Improved Eldritch Heritage - +2 to CON at 9th, 13th, and 17th levels.
Greater Eldritch Heritage - wings!
So I'm basically paying 4 feat for an extra 60 HP by 20th level, and wings for mobility, although they won't come until 17th level.
Any thoughts on whether it's worth it and/or necessary for Wrath of the Righteous? I'm not necessarily looking for an optimal build, but I do want an effective build.
Well, more like 60 hp and +3 fort save. Oh, and you'll need to take Exotic Heritage instead of skill focus if you want Pit-Touched, as it is a mutated Bloodline. You can easily make use of the Corrupting Touch ability by giving your weapon the Conductive weapon property.
As far as making yourself more "tanky", I'd suggest taking feats that boost the healing you receive (maybe too late for fey-foundling) or using your Eldritch Heritage to pick up a familiar with the Protector Archetype. At level 5, you get effectively 50% more HP, and at 11th a 100% hp boost. And more AC. Or, do both if your GM allows you to use the Bloodline Familiar options to get both pit-touched and a Familiar by trading out your 1st level power.
Maybe use Shield other to split damage amoung the group to maximize channel energy healing.
If a high level game is like playing rocket tag, a high level mythic game is like playing rocket tag with nuclear rockets. An extra 60 HP is not going to make a whole lot of difference. Further information on your build would be useful. Without knowing what is available I cannot really give much advice.
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To clarify, I'm currently a drow 4th level Oath of Vengeance, Tempered Champion Paladin, using a bastard sword two-handed (favored weapon of Ragathiel). Still wearing lamellar steel armor, because that's all I can afford just now!
20 point build:
16
14
12
10
8
16
Looking at the following for feats:
1. Power Attack (taken)
3. Extra Lay on Hands (taken)
4. Weapon Focus (Tempered Champion)
5. Furious Focus
7. Antagonize
8. Weapon Specialization (Tempered Champion)
9. Improved Critical
11. Skill Focus, Diplomacy
12. Greater Weapon Focus (Tempered Champion)
13. Eldritch Heritage
15. Improved Eldritch Heritage
16. Greater Weapon Specialization (Tempered Champion)
17. Greater Eldritch Heritage
19. Toughness
For Mythic, I'm looking at the Guardian path:
Tier 1:
Absorb Blow
Fast Healing
Mythic Paragon
Tier 2:
Legendary Weapon (Powerful, Returning, Intelligent)
Tier 3:
Fast Healing
Extra Path Ability: Legendary Weapon (Foe-Biting, Powerful, Unstoppable Strike)
Tier 4:
Armored Might
Tier 5:
Earth Protection
Mythic Power Attack
The DM told us we'll pick up 1 mythic tier at the end of each book, so we will only have 5 tiers going into book 6. My goal is to provide consistent damage with good survivability. Offense will be primarily from my extra smites from Oath of Vengeance's Channel Wrath ability combined with Legendary Weapon's Foe-Biting power. Survivability will come from Absorb Blow, Fast Healing, and Lay on Hands. Will probably pump some more points into CON. Again, don't need to be OP, just want to hold my own and be fun to play.
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How much can you change on the character?
If possible change your race to half orc. Then change your staring feats. Take Fey Foundling as your first level feat for the extra healing, and pick up ferocious resolve at 3rd level. Ferocious resolve is going to mean that in order to take you out they have to kill you. Your lay on hands as a swift action is going to make that extremely difficult. In a mythic campaign this combination is even more potent because hard to kill means you don’t die until your reach negative 2x your CON.
Fast healing is not going to be that useful so don’t bother taking it. Take armored might at 1st tier instead. It may only give you +1 AC at this point but will level up after that. When you hit tier 2 it will go up to +2 which is a little better but will max out a +3 at tier 4. Overall this is probably your best option for this level.
Legendary weapon is fine but keep in mind that you can only get to actually use 1 ability per tier. Taking it the second time at 3rd level gives you nothing for that tier. Delay taking this a second time until at least tier 5. Also keep in mind that you have to take the persistent powers first. Since you will be limited to tier 5 you will have to choose between foe-biting and unstoppable strike. You will never be able to use both of them because you have to activate the second use of powerful before either of them. That also means that you will not get the ability you choose until last which is why I suggest waiting until tier 5 to pick it up.
At tier 3 pickup impervious body instead of fast healing. Being able to take off 5 points of damage from each attack is going to be a lot more useful than healing 5 or even 10 points per round. Since absorb blow stacks with any other damage reduction this will give you DR 7 epic at tier 3 which will increase to 8 at tier 4. Use your mythic feat to pick up shrug it off. At this point you will be pretty high level and facing some powerful mythic creatures. With things like mythic improved critical on a high attack being taken out in a single lucky hit is a real possibility. Being able to turn a critical hit into a normal hit may save your characters life.
For Tier 4 I would consider picking up additional call to get sudden block. At this point you would be getting a +6 to your AC and forcing the attacker to roll twice and take the worse roll. Since you already have armored might you are getting a +9 AC without the bonus from smite evil. Use this when fighting the boss and rely on your epic DR from impervious body and absorb blow for the minions.
Don’t bother with mythic power attack as you are already using a two handed weapon so the only thing you gain is the ability to reduce the penalty to hit. Considering all the other things you will be able to do with your mythic points you may not have many to spare.
@Mysterious Stranger Thanks for the thorough response! I'm sticking with the drow background as I have an entire character history written out, and I don't think my DM wants me to do a complete character reset.
For Legendary Weapon and Absorb Blow, I get a 2-tier advancement from Mythic Paragon, so I'm starting with Absorb Blow of 15 hp and 3 Legendary Weapon abilities at Tier 1. I wanted to get to Foe-Biting as quickly as possible, which is why I aimed for my second Legendary Weapon slot at Tier 3 (effectively Tier 5 with Mythic Paragon), but I'll certainly look at the changes you recommend, particularly regarding Fast Healing.
Thanks for the help! Happy to hear any other suggestions folks might have!
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@OP: Given that the sword is Ragathiel's chosen weapon you probably don't want to change it. That said, you're totally missing out on the defensive screen of wielding a reach weapon. You have the proper build to exploit a reach weapon, but for some reason you do not. If you did, all your actions on your turn could be identical, but you'd also get to trip or attack anything that tried to move close to you or to the squishy PCs behind you.
Of the many ways of becoming more 'tanky' in Pathfinder, this is probably the easiest and most effective. You would inflict more damage and your defensive screen would mitigate incoming damage to both you and to your squishy party. This effect is the main reason that reach weapons (especially spears) dominated historical battlefields for centuries. As a general rule, a polearm is a Main Battle Weapon while a sword is a Sidearm. Polearm is to Sword as Rifle is to Handgun. Your sidearm is what you fight with when you've lost your primary weapon.
Some of the powerful demons you will face can pretty well ignore a reach screen. Their CMD is high and some have outrageously high acrobatics. However, it will still work pretty well against the many mooks, even at higher levels.
Better check with your GM about the legendary item and how it works with mythic paragon. Mythic paragon specifically states that it does not grant you access to mythic abilities at a lower tier than you would normally be able to get them. That could easily be interpreted that you do not get to activate more legendary abilities than your actual tier allows. If your GM gives the approval that works.
@Magda I can certainly see the logic to that! But yes, I just picked up Radiance, which transforms to your deity's favored weapon, so I would hate to give it up. :(
@MS Yes, I'll check with the DM. I only mentioned Mythic Paragon as we use Hero Lab (which certainly isn't error-free) and it allows the extra legendary weapon abilities.
I debated between Impervious Body and Fast Healing. I figured even at Tier 1, Fast Healing gives me 50 points of healing, but you're right that it's probably wasting a mythic power point for healing that I can get either from lay on hands or our ecclesitheurge. And taking 5 points off every single attack will add up. It's a pity I won't get the chance to upgrade it at 6th tier!
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@Seems: Indeed! Every faithful paladin should choose the more stylish and deified Radiance, in sword form, over a non-magical primary weapon, even if math says the latter might be more effective :-)
Historical heavy infantry or cavalry would generally carry both a main battle weapon (shield & weapon combo, polearm, missile weapon, or specialty weapon) and a sidearm (sword, handaxe, etc) as a secondary weapon.
May you destroy many demons!
Your GM suggested you get tankier as a way to compensate for the squishyness of your allies. Your GM seems to be concerned that your team lacks defense.
Your team will be considerably safer and more effective if someone on your team establishes a defensive reach weapon screen. Perhaps someone else on your team could deploy a reach screen without hindering their own-turn effectiveness. For example, perhaps your Brawler could carry a longspear to deal out trips & damage at reach via AoOs, then drop it when foes get close. My point is that the main benefit of carrying a reach weapon occurs when it's not your turn. E.g. Some PCs can carry a free reach screen without hindering their own-turn actions at all, yet often don't think to do so.
Adding an effective reach screen is one way to significantly increase your teams' defensive power. This is a strong effect in Pathfinder, yet it's never explicitly mentioned in the rules.
Spearmen formed the core of most historical armies. I use the term 'basic martial competence' to describe a PC with 14+ strength wielding a longspear. That combination is about the minimum investment that gets one effective melee offense and defense. This 'basic competence' won't do much against a boss but is enough to keep mooks at bay. Meeting this minimum standard transforms your Pathfinder PC's role from 'one who needs protection' into 'one able to protect others'.
P.s. I'm speaking from experience as a GM. I've observed that parties with a formidable reach screen consistently do better than those without. Reach weapons are most significant when it's the GM's turn, so players mostly thinking about their own turn can easily miss the effect.
I'm going to take another crack at this, ditching the Eldritch Heritage feats and relying on my Guardian path for better defense. I'm intrigued by capitalizing on Intimidation with Cornugon Smash combined with Hurtful and/or Shatter Defenses, although I can't decide if both are a good investment. I view Cornugon Smash almost as a form of defense as I have a good chance of giving anyone I hit a -2 on attack rolls. Also having a hard time deciding whether to put my extra ability points (4 from levels and 4 from Mythic) into STR or CON.
20 point build:
16
14
12
10
8
16
Looking at the following for feats:
1. Power Attack (taken)
3. Extra Lay on Hands (taken)
4. Weapon Focus (Tempered Champion feat)
5. Furious Focus
7. Antagonize
8. Weapon Specialization (Tempered Champion feat)
9. Improved Critical
11. Cornugon Smash
12. Greater Weapon Focus (Tempered Champion feat)
13. Dazzling Display
15. Shatter Defenses
16. Greater Weapon Specialization (Tempered Champion feat)
17. Hurtful
19. Toughness
Guardian path:
Tier 1:
Absorb Blow
Armored Might
Mythic Paragon
Tier 2:
Legendary Weapon 1 (Powerful, Returning, Intelligent)
Tier 3:
Impervious Body
Extra Path Ability: Legendary Weapon 2 (Foe-Biting, Powerful)
Tier 4:
Extra Guardian's Call: Sudden Block
Tier 5:
Earth Protection
? Mythic Improved Critical/Mythic Shatter Defenses/Mythic Toughness
Any additional suggestions? Planned this out in Hero Lab so it should be fairly legit. Thanks in advance!