What witches are supposed to be good at? All the things they're not good at, naturally!
1) Healing, but they can't even deal with ability damage or most status conditions.
2) Hedging out spirits with salt circles and such, but they have none of the basic magic circle spells or the effective occult style magics (even after OA was added to the game).
3) Poison trickery, but they can't remove or resist them with neutralize poison or even delay poison, have no bonuses to deal with them, and have low fortitude... also see 'healing'. Working with them becomes suicidal and stupid.
4) Shapeshifting, but they get shafted on polymorph spells.
5) Calling outsiders and spirits to play tricks or do their dirty work, but they have no planar ally or planar binding abilities. Heck, if they do get planar binding with a patron they can't make circles to even do the job.
It really feels like the creators cut most of the witchy spells out intentionally so they could be more lazy about making patrons. Hey, at least they're good at rune traps thanks to having a good list of symbol, sigil, and glyph spells. Wooh.
If witches had what they had now, plus all that, they'd likely be too good. Developers had to draw the line somewhere for balance's sake.
I'd say the witch is "fine" total power wise. Of course, if I were to make my own witch class it'd be very different than what we have, but then my idea of a witch would end up not matching someone else's idea of a witch.
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<mclaughlin>WROOOONG! NEXT ISSUE!</mclaughlin>
I mean, of all the 9th level casters the Witch has the most limited spell list, it's true. But of all the 9 level casters Witches also have the best "non-spellcasting" class features since hexes do not run out whereas domains, bloodline powers, phrenic amps, arcane school powers, wildshape, etc. all tend to have caps on how much you can use them.
If you want something which is like a Witch, but has access to more spells, might I recommend the Shaman class? Shaman gets hexes and a familiar like a Witch, but your spell list is absurdly flexible once you get Wandering Spirit at 4th level. Big difference, of course, is that the Shaman is the hardest class in the game to play whereas the Witch is kind of the easiest primary spellcaster (as long as you have evil eye, cackle, misfortune, and some good debuffing spells you are fine).
It seems a lot of people are misunderstanding the OP's issue with the witch spell-list. The title makes it a bit misleading. I do agree that a couple of the classic witch abilities aren't present in the spell-list. Instead they're presented in the hexes, with ones such as Cauldron and Cackle. I'm fairly certain some archetypes can cover some of those issues you have, such as Hedge Witch for healing.
As I see it, there are a few reasons why the list is how it is. First, no witch should be good at all of those things, even if we all agreed they are "traditional witch spells". The better you make the witch list, the less reason there is for the other classes to exist. I can see granting one subset of those things via Patron or Archetype (or both) and not having a problem. Some of those things can be accomplished with existing tools.
Hedge Witch has already been mentioned and the Healing Patron covers even more.
Boundaries + Infernal Contract can get you the allies and circles, but it's not rules legal by default I don't think. If your DM is flexible and creative, you could even come up with a good or neutral or whatever variation on Infernal Contract.
Poison use is the most questionable to me, as it's probably easier to just re-flavor a curse as being delivered by food or drink. If someone really wanted poison, I'd create a custom archetype that adds some poison use, save bonuses and maybe a patron with some suitable spells... but I probably wouldn't add both poison use/save bonuses and the curative spells. I'd be more likely to offer up things like accelerate poison to make things nastier rather than the witch safer.
There are many many examples of 'witches' in folklore and fiction, and many of them are quite different from each other. Your list is true of some, but certainly not all.
That is why customization via patrons and archetypes exists, to allow you to (likely) make the specific witch you want to make without giving all witches all the abilities.
The witch spell list is based on the one on the D&D 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide which is based on one witch concept. Patron spells and hexes (and maybe archetypes) buff that and cover other concepts. The current witch class is not underpowered IMO, if that's what you're saying.
The witch spell list is somewhat deficient thematically, but they're already very strong if played properly- solidly middle of tier 1. So it very much depends on how you define "hot garbage".
Does it fulfill the fantasy of being a witch? Probably not. Does it need a straight buff? Also no.
(Patrons are a bad band-aid. Witch has no adequate defensive spells natively other than Fly, so you're railroaded into patrons that keep you from getting splattered if you want to play the game instead of choking on an arrow.)
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The witch spell list is somewhat deficient thematically
Which theme is that exactly? Is that the theme that the witch class was intended to model?
Does it fulfill the fantasy of being a witch? Probably not.
Which fantasy is that exactly? Is that the fantasy that the witch class was intended to model?
Seems like a lot of the observed problems with the witch's thematic suitability stem from a misunderstanding of the sort of witch that was being modeled in the first place. This ain't The Craft or Sabrina, folks. We have the wizard, sorcerer, cleric, oracle, spiritualist, and occultist classes for that sort of thing.
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The witch spell list is somewhat deficient thematicallyWhich theme is that exactly? Is that the theme that the witch class was intended to model?
Personally, I think it's lacking in transmutations. Witches are always changing into other things in stories. And then they oddly get all of these fey form spells, which doesn't align with any of the stories I'm familiar with.
Does "Hot Garbage" equate to doesn't do a specific thing desired, or doesn't do everything you can think of? Provocative yet meaningless, please gods, do not discuss.
Personally, I think it's lacking in transmutations. Witches are always changing into other things in stories. And then they oddly get all of these fey form spells, which doesn't align with any of the stories I'm familiar with.The witch spell list is somewhat deficient thematicallyWhich theme is that exactly? Is that the theme that the witch class was intended to model?
Wouldn't that be like a Witch pretending to be a 'nice witch' or some other type of "Good otherwordly creature"?
I'm sure that comes up but I can't recall a story off the top of my head.
On a more serious note, while I agree that while witches shouldn't be good at all of the things in OP's list, I do find the vanilla witch spell list to be rather weak for a 9th level spellcaster and lacking in witchy flavor. Patrons and archetypes only add a small smattering of additional spells.
That is not to say the witch as a class is weak. Your bread-and-butter hexes will go and go, which is particularly useful at low levels when other classes are running out of their daily resources, and while their spell list doesn't pack the same punch as a cleric or a wizard they're still 9th level spellcasters.
I mean, of all the 9th level casters the Witch has the most limited spell list, it's true.
I'd say the Witch list is much better than the Shaman* and Druid and much more enjoyable to play with than Cleric/Oracle if not more powerful.
*= I know the Shaman can pilfer spells off other casters' lists and, to be honest, this feature has really soured me on the class.
The point isn't that they're underpowered, unless you think the moment they became overpowered would be when they gained the ability to create a magic circle against chaos to hedge a demon, or use delay poison to offer an ultimatum, or lesser restoration to restore a bit when they rolled a 1 making something in the cauldron?
I'm just saying that they can make a poison-steeped apple, but they can't do anything to deal with the poison that's bubbling in front of their face. They can't even restore the damage from the poison.
(lots of different stuff)
What, exactly, is a witch to you? What makes said witch "witchy"? Does your witch concept match the conceptual description of the witch class found in the Advanced Player's Guide?
[Edit]
For my part, I don't see anything in the witch's conceptual description that would lead one to expect that witches should be excellent demon binders or poison use experts. That said, if you're looking for the latter, it looks like the veneficus witch was created with exactly that in mind. (In lieu of delay poison, might I suggest using a slower-acting poison?)
It is a bit strange that the one archetype geared around planar binding, the dimensional occultist, does not receive magic circle as a patron spell. It's nothing that one couldn't overcome with a scroll or an ally, but it's odd. The bog-standard witch class, though, isn't really themed around a character who calls outsiders to do their bidding, so chalk that up to another hastily-written archetype.
I'd call it room-temperature garbage at worst.
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Lesser Restoration is a Healing Patron spell, as is Restoration.
Edit: Delay Poison and Neutralize Poison ARE on the witch spell list.
By comparison, all spell lists fall short when compared to the sorcerer/wizard/arcanist spell list. That doesn't make the Witch hot garbage, it makes it a normal middle-of-the-road 9-level caster. If you want the best spell list in the game, play one of those other classes. The Witch shines for its amazing hexes, and the class overall is an amazing package. If hexes don't appeal to you, though, then this isn't the right class for you. That's a perfectly fine subjective call - I'd personally play a Wizard over a Witch myself - but that's a matter of preference.
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What Witches are supposed to do is HEX and they do that very well. If you want a better spell list, you can always modify it. This is a tabletop game. If you believe a part of it should be different, you can alter it to your tastes pretty easily.
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Note to self: Research hot garbage ball spell.
What witches are supposed to be good at? All the things they're not good at, naturally!
1) Healing, but they can't even deal with ability damage or most status conditions.
2) Hedging out spirits with salt circles and such, but they have none of the basic magic circle spells or the effective occult style magics (even after OA was added to the game).
3) Poison trickery, but they can't remove or resist them with neutralize poison or even delay poison, have no bonuses to deal with them, and have low fortitude... also see 'healing'. Working with them becomes suicidal and stupid.
4) Shapeshifting, but they get shafted on polymorph spells.
5) Calling outsiders and spirits to play tricks or do their dirty work, but they have no planar ally or planar binding abilities. Heck, if they do get planar binding with a patron they can't make circles to even do the job.It really feels like the creators cut most of the witchy spells out intentionally so they could be more lazy about making patrons. Hey, at least they're good at rune traps thanks to having a good list of symbol, sigil, and glyph spells. Wooh.
Most of the stuff you are asking for is patron/archetype dependent.
Depending on choices, the witch can access almost everything you are asking for, and is some cases considerably more. For example: a hedge witch/hex channeler with the healing patron can not only cure ability damage and status conditions, they can spontaneously cast cure spells and channel just like a cleric.
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Unpopular opinion.
I actually really like the Witch Spell List. It's like someone crossed the Druid and the Wizard spell list, and I find any suggestion that it lacks thematically appropriate spells is perhaps...biased. I agree the list is limited and a patron helps a ton, but you won't find a list more suited to entertainment than the Witch's spell list. Rains of Frogs, Mad Monkeys, and more await the foes of a clever Witch.
Yes, it was titled with humourous intentions only. If you feel people may misunderstand then I can understand you wanting to change the title (and I have no issue with that).
Most of the stuff you are asking for is patron/archetype dependent.
Depending on choices, the witch can access almost everything you are asking for, and is some cases considerably more. For example: a hedge witch/hex channeler with the healing patron can not only cure ability damage and status conditions, they can spontaneously cast cure spells and channel just like a cleric.
I don't know about you, but to me it seems like a trap for newer players having one patron allowing you to use planar binding spells, and a different one giving access to magic circle spells.
The irony of a binding patron being a trap for the witch itself isn't lost on me, but I don't think the purpose of the game is to punish new players who missed the line about magic circles in calling spells, requiring DM fiat to make them work or allowing them to trade away their patron at a later time somehow?
That's just one example of the shenanigans caused by shoving iconic witch spells into the patrons.
Note to self: Research hot garbage ball spell.
Stinking Cloud.
What Witches are supposed to do is HEX and they do that very well. If you want a better spell list, you can always modify it. This is a tabletop game. If you believe a part of it should be different, you can alter it to your tastes pretty easily.
By comparison, all spell lists fall short when compared to the sorcerer/wizard/arcanist spell list. That doesn't make the Witch hot garbage, it makes it a normal middle-of-the-road 9-level caster. If you want the best spell list in the game, play one of those other classes. The Witch shines for its amazing hexes, and the class overall is an amazing package. If hexes don't appeal to you, though, then this isn't the right class for you. That's a perfectly fine subjective call - I'd personally play a Wizard over a Witch myself - but that's a matter of preference.
I'd not be so quick to dismiss bloodlines, arcane exploits and arcane schools (let alone the archetypes that can replace them). They're often better than hexes in their own right, and many augment spells to such a degree that they're certainly competitive with hexes as a class feature.
I disagree with the assessment of 'Hexes exist' as a reason for their spell list being arbitrarily stifled, especially since the iconic spells they're missing aren't especially powerful spells in their own right. They're just the sort of spells they should have.
Edit: Added Dasrak's quote as his reply was relevant
Unpopular opinion.
I actually really like the Witch Spell List. It's like someone crossed the Druid and the Wizard spell list, and I find any suggestion that it lacks thematically appropriate spells is perhaps...biased. I agree the list is limited and a patron helps a ton, but you won't find a list more suited to entertainment than the Witch's spell list. Rains of Frogs, Mad Monkeys, and more await the foes of a clever Witch.
I respect your opinion. Some of the spells they do have are fun and interesting. I've only ever used mad monkeys as an RP gag on a vanara comrade out of combat though, and that was an an arcanist.
I have, however, had a campaign screech to a dead halt and be unable to continue without suspension of disbelief that we didn't just lose the game. No lesser restoration due to having a witch healing and we had ability damage to deal with. Guess we're just resting for a few days whenever we take ability damage ladies and gentlemen. Yay.
Edit: Formatting
For clarity, witches aren’t witchy in part because delay poison and Neutralize Poison aren’t on the witch spell list? Or am I misreading.
For clarity, a witch stirring a broiling cauldron full of poison to steep an apple with no means to survive exposure doesn't seem a little strange to you? It seems like a good example of a problem with the spell list to me.
My issue is more with them being unable to restore themselves if a poison hurts them. I was in error about them not possessing the means to remove the poison debuff itself. I was mixing it up with the lack of accelerate poison I think.
Lesser Restoration is a Healing Patron spell, as is Restoration.
Edit: Delay Poison and Neutralize Poison ARE on the witch spell list.
Yes my mistake, you're correct. They need a specific patron for the damage caused by poison exposure, but they can stop poison from dealing more damage to them.
Yes my mistake, you're correct. They need a specific patron for the damage caused by poison exposure, but they can stop poison from dealing more damage to them.Lesser Restoration is a Healing Patron spell, as is Restoration.
Edit: Delay Poison and Neutralize Poison ARE on the witch spell list.
But a witch who wants to poison people will probably take one of the archetypes (e.g. Venificus Witch) and the various "hexes that poison people" carry no chance of accidentally poisoning the user.
I have, however, had a campaign screech to a dead halt and be unable to continue without suspension of disbelief that we didn't just lose the game. No lesser restoration due to having a witch healing and we had ability damage to deal with. Guess we're just resting for a few days whenever we take ability damage ladies and gentlemen. Yay.
Ok, so because your party had no divine caster/alchemist/investigator and the Witch wasn't dedicated to healing, and no one had UMD, and you couldn't hire an NPC for some reason, the Witch's spell list is somehow lacking? I'm sorry, but I don't really follow your train of reasoning. You could literally make the same argument for the Wizard spell list.
I'd not be so quick to dismiss bloodlines, arcane exploits and arcane schools (let alone the archetypes that can replace them). They're often better than hexes in their own right, and many augment spells to such a degree that they're certainly competitive with hexes as a class feature.
Some of those may be better than some hexes, but at-will SoS effects (Slumber, Restless Slumber, Ice Tomb), roll-twice defense (the Protective Luck/Fortune/Cackle combo), increasing all your DCs (self-targeted Withering combined with Age Resistance spells) and almost immunity against fort-effects if an enemy is nearby (Greater Gift of Consumption) are hard to beat.
Something worth noting is that Cleric domain spells and Sorcerer bonus spells are often the same sort of spell they can normally cast. They don't rely their selection of class features to ensure they are able to know the spells they ought to know.
it depends on how you're defining "ought to know".
If I'm making a necromancer style cleric the only way they can get the spell command undead is to take the inevitable subdomain. It's certainly a spell my necromancer cleric "ought to know" and its not even part of the death domain or any of it's subdomains. Also, domain spells are weaker then patron spells in that outside of sacrificing one of their domains (and the ability to wear armor) if a domain spell isn't on their class list they can't use their normal spell slots to memorize it.
Note to self: Research hot garbage ball spell.Wouldn't that just summon a bunch of semi-attractive but shallow and vain people with a party atmosphere?
I'd think maybe a new take on Fireball. Some Blunt damage and Fire, leaves behind a sticking cloud.
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Also, domain spells are weaker then patron spells in that outside of sacrificing one of their domains (and the ability to wear armor) if a domain spell isn't on their class list they can't use their normal spell slots to memorize it.
Not to mention the fact that domain spells are much more likely to already be on the Cleric spell list, i.e. its not actually a boost, than patron spells already being on the Witch list.
To the OP, I love witches and feel their spells list is extremely tight thematically and really reinforces the feel of the class. It also feels very different than the Wizard or Cleric.
You can't play a Witch like you do a Wizard, you will be bad at it and will become frustrated quickly. The spell list forces you to play a Witch differently. If you didn't why have a separate class? Just be a wizard.
So one thing that is often a problem with full casters in Pathfinder is difficult to create a framework that encourages them to be specialists in a specific kind of magic with corresponding gaps in their game. Whereas fiction is full of stuff like "I'm a fire mage, I can't cast ice spells" most attempts in Pathfinder fall short of accomplishing this. Even though Sorcerers have a small selection of spells, pretty much all of them are going to grab the important spells even if they aren't on-theme; being a specialist Wizard has never kept anybody from learning or casting a specific kind of spell their are contraindicated to if it's important for the specific task; and it's especially hard with clerics who know the entire divine list.
But later attempts at creating a spellcaster more inclined to specialize have been more successful, as the Oracle and Witch classes both put a lot of the meat on the spells from the specific thing you choose to define your character (mystery or patron) and this is even more successful with the Witch because the Witch list is much smaller and more specialized.
I find in a lot of heroic fiction where witches are- a) protagonists and b) not just a word used for a woman wizard- that witches tend to be highly specialized, so the class being one where it's hard/impossible to be a healing witch, and a shapechanging witch, and a summoning witch, and a weather witch, and a poisoning witch, and a mind-controlling witch, etc. So this works for me.
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Note to self: Research hot garbage ball spell.
here you go.
School evocation [evil, fire]; Level paladin 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 full round action
Components V, S, M/DF (1 holy symbol and one full material component pouch costing 102gp)
EFFECT
Range: 15 feet
Effect: 1 flaming ball of hot garbage
Area: 5-ft. diameter
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex, Fort, Will or Crimson Herring negates, see text; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
A hot garbage ball spell generates a searing explosion of flame and detritus that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d4 points of fire/bludgeoning damage +1 per 5 caster levels (maximum 1d4+5) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects are immune to this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the hot garbage ball is to burst. The material component pouch is consumed, compressing into a glowing, pea-sized bead which then streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the hot garbage ball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. You must succeed on a ranged attack to strike your target using your base attack bonus plus intelligence instead of constitution.
The hot garbage spell sets fire to loot and damages valuable objects in the area. It has no effect on things that have no intrinsic value. It also leaves behind an effect similar to stinking cloud except instead of nauseating creatures it gives them a -1 to diplomacy rolls for 1 round before dissipating.
Mythic Hot Garbage Ball
The damage dealt increases to 2d4 points of fire/bludgeoning damage +1 per 6 caster levels (maximum 2d4+3), rerolling 4s. The area increases to a 15 foot radius and can effect 1 creature per 5 levels starting with the caster who gets no save.
School evocation [evil, fire]; Level paladin 2
Do I detect a bit of pointed commentary? Well done, sir, well done.
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You left out curses and mental manipulation from your list, which I'd say are the *most* common archetypes of witchy magic, and coincidentally, the ones that base witches absolutely have in spades. Combined with the Hexes and Patron spells that dip a lot into those other capabilities, the complaint feels rather cherry-picked to me.
I agree with Revan that the complaints feel cherry-picked. It is my experience that the witch's spell list is there to supplement their hexes. So instead of viewing them as 9th level spell casters with hexes view them as hex users with 9th level spell casting.