Witch Spell List is Too Limited. Discuss.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

blahpers wrote:

Note to self: Research hot garbage ball spell.

And now I find myself wanting a Dodge Ball feat.

[Melkiador]

The cleric spell list almost needs to be a little limited, because the cleric has free access to prepare any cleric spell of his level. The prepared arcane casters meanwhile only have a handful of their possible spells, unless they spend large amounts of time and resources.

[PossibleCabbage]

the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:

blahpers wrote:

Note to self: Research hot garbage ball spell.

And now I find myself wanting a Dodge Ball feat.

It's pretty weak, I would just take Dodge Wrench instead.

[Daw]

Dodge Thrown Pistol is better, even superman dodges them after calmly allowing the villain to empty said pistol at our man of steal. ^_^

[Serghar Cromwell]

I prefer Dodge Traffic, myself. More useful day-to-day.

[ShroudedInLight]

I've been forced to take Dodge Rulebook, I get a few thrown at me whenever I debut a new character.

[pad300]

To go back to the topic, I agree with the OP, as I posted in 2011 :

pad300 wrote:

Assuming a 4 person party, you have great difficulty fulfilling either the arcane support (wizard) or healing/divine support (cleric) roles. As arcane you lack key buffs (eg protection from evil, haste), you lack key utility spells (eg water breathing, rope trick), and you lack personal defensive spells (eg shield, blur, mirror image). On the divine side, your healing is much lacking due to no channel energy, no spontaneous healing, and lack of condition removing spells – eg. Restoration, remove paralysis, ressurection, etc. As well, the lack of defensive capability makes this role much harder for a witch. This inability to fulfill certain roles makes the witch a class with a difficulty at playing well with others. It works well as a 5th character, but it’s harder to work as a core four…Finally, they are missing a huge amount of power effects at high level (contingency, PAO, Timestop, shades, weird, imprisonment, miracle(intervention from the patron)/Wish )..

Alternatively, you could look at the witch spell-list from the flavour standpoint, but it still gets goofy. As Sayer mentioned – no binding or planar ally spells, while witches summoning and making deals with entities has been a talent of theirs in literature. No simalcrum – another spell for convoluted plots gone missing. What is lightning bolt doing here vs the druidic, and much more in flavour, call lightning. How about shapechanging – not an uncommon talent for witches in literature- a no go. Why a fly spell, as opposed to something that will temporarily enchant a broom or a cauldron…)

The full thread is here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m92x?In-Which-Viktyr-Korimir-Complains-About- the#19

That said, archetypes have helped significantly with the role issue, hedge witch makes a viable cleric replacement. Obviously, this is all water (far) under the bridge at this point, but I do not think an expanded witch spell list would break the game... and would increase the witch's flavor.

Thus, I encourage you to look at the spell research rules. There is precedent for research outside of your nominal list:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ug7a?Researching-other-class-spells#18

[Tsukiyo]

pad300 wrote:

Why a fly spell, as opposed to something that will temporarily enchant a broom or a cauldron…)

Ugh. So glad my witch isn't obliged to fly around on a broom.

[Daw]

Tsukiyo wrote:

pad300 wrote:

Why a fly spell, as opposed to something that will temporarily enchant a broom or a cauldron…)

Ugh. So glad my witch isn't obliged to fly around on a broom.

By your chosen name, your interest is Asian. Brooms and riding inside cauldron are more of a European and Slavic Mythos.

[Tsukiyo]

Daw wrote:

[

By your chosen name, your interest is Asian. Brooms and riding inside cauldron are more of a European and Slavic Mythos.

I like the broom/cauldron mythology just fine. I just don't want to be limited to it. Ditto Cackle. I asked my GM if I could swap it out for Chant flavourwise. I don't like being shoehorned into a Brothers Grimm story.

I regret my choice of username here. I didn't realise Tsukiyo was a thing in Pathfinder when I joined. I live in Japan and just liked the meaning. Is there anyway I can change it?

[Yqatuba]

The inquisitor spell list. Oh, I thought you said "WHICH spell list is too limited"...

[MrCharisma]

Yqatuba wrote:

I thought you said "WHICH spell list is too limited"...

Haha I keep seeing it that way too.

[Cevah]

Falkyron wrote:

What witches are supposed to be good at? All the things they're not good at, naturally!

:-)

Falkyron wrote:

1) Healing, but they can't even deal with ability damage or most status conditions.

Delay Disease is Witch 1

Remove Sickness is Witch 1
Soothing Word is Witch 2
Accept Affliction is Witch 3
Remove Blindness/Deafness is Witch 3
Remove Curse is Witch 3
Remove Disease is Witch 3
Absorb Toxicity is Witch 4 [Apply result to a summoned creature]
Reincarnate is Witch 5
Raise Dead is itch 6
Stone to Flesh is Witch 6
Heal is Witch 7
Regenerate is Witch 7
Reincarnate Spy is Witch 7
Clone is Witch 8
Resurrection is Witch 8

Falkyron wrote:

3) Poison trickery, but they can't remove or resist them with neutralize poison or even delay poison, have no bonuses to deal with them, and have low fortitude... also see 'healing'. Working with them becomes suicidal and stupid.

Delay Poison is Witch 2

Delay Poison, Communal is Witch 3
Neutralize Poison is Witch 4

Falkyron wrote:

4) Shapeshifting, but they get shafted on polymorph spells.

Fey Form I, II, III, and IV

Alter Self
Assume Appearance
Assume Appearance, Greater
Claim Identity
Claim Identity, Greater
Fins to Feet
Pup Shape
Vermin Shape I & II
Ignoble Form
Innocuous Shape
Dust Form
Particulate Form
Venomous Transformation
Frightful Aspect
Shadow Transformation [mimic: animal growth, anthropomorphic animal, enlarge person, fins to feet, longarm, polymorph, reduce person, and stone fist]
Shadow Transformation, Greater [mimic: animal growth, anthropomorphic animal, enlarge person, fins to feet, longarm, greater polymorph, reduce person, and stone fist]

Falkyron wrote:

5) Calling outsiders and spirits to play tricks or do their dirty work, but they have no planar ally or planar binding abilities. Heck, if they do get planar binding with a patron they can't make circles to even do the job.

Planar Inquiry

Blind Sage

Falkyron wrote:

It really feels like the creators cut most of the witchy spells out intentionally so they could be more lazy about making patrons. Hey, at least they're good at rune traps thanks to having a good list of symbol, sigil, and glyph spells. Wooh.

The patron spells do add a lot of what you say they miss.

As to stat damage, magic items are available:
Antiplague [50 gp]
Antitoxin [50 gp]
Soul Stimulant [300 gp]
Bandages of Rapid Recovery [200 gp]
Extraction Scarificator [2500 gp]
Healer's Satchel, Specialized [3000 gp]

/cevah

[Hobit of Bree]

Yeah, I'm playing a healing witch (hedge witch, healing patron) and I largely like the spell list. My biggest complaint is that I'm stuck with the druid rate of getting healing spells. My character is a specialized healer. He can heal a party member of more than 50 points a damage in an hour without magic (10th level, I think the number is 53). But cure serious wounds is 4th level and he doesn't have a mass healing spell yet.

But otherwise I find the spell list mostly thematic, powerful enough and fun. I will say that starting with 5th level spells, summon monster is one of the best spells available. It's always a powerful spell, but for a witch, there just aren't a lot of great spells above 4th level (4th level spells are great...)

[avr]

Tsukiyo wrote:

I regret my choice of username here. I didn't realise Tsukiyo was a thing in Pathfinder when I joined. I live in Japan and just liked the meaning. Is there anyway I can change it?

The easiest way would be to create an alias and then set that as your default alias for posting with. There's probably another way involving contacting Paizo.

[Derklord]

Hobit of Bree wrote:

Yeah, I'm playing a healing witch (hedge witch, healing patron) and I largely like the spell list. My biggest complaint is that I'm stuck with the druid rate of getting healing spells.

Why is that a problem? Cure spells suck anyway, no matter the progression.

Hobit of Bree wrote:

My character is a specialized healer. He can heal a party member of more than 50 points a damage in an hour without magic (10th level, I think the number is 53).

The Healer's Hands feat turns "an hour" into "a full-round action".

Hobit of Bree wrote:

for a witch, there just aren't a lot of great spells above 4th level (4th level spells are great...)

Say what? Even ignoring the stong non-combat spells (Overland Flight, Find the Path, Greater Teleport, Clone, Nine Lives), Witch still has combat spells like Cloudkill, Dust Form, Heal, Waves of Exhaustion, and Maze.

@Cevah: Nice list! I'd add Nine Lives for #1, and Spawn Calling for #5, though.

[Cevah]

Derklord wrote:

@Cevah: Nice list! I'd add Nine Lives for #1, and Spawn Calling for #5, though.

D20pfsrd renamed it Call the Godspawn. This does not work for #5, as the summoned creature is considered native to the Material Plane. It is not extraplanar.

I was not aware of Nine Lives. Nice spell, but late game.

/cevah

[Joynt Jezebel]

There is something I think is not being properly considered here.

For a witch, wizard or arcanist to use a spell, they have to-

1 learn the spell
2 memorise it &
3 and it has to be on the appropriate list.

I have never had trouble finding good spells on the witch list to learn going up levels or to memorise. Admittedly, I haven't played a witch beyond level 4, and I suspect at much higher levels than the the better lists will be felt.

And you can only have so many spells memorised at one time. So wizards et al do have more powerful options and can use more spells found during play, so the practical difference is less than it may seem.

Played correctly, a typical witch with a bunch of hexes can use hexes for what they can do and use the spells to do what the hexes can't. So a witches spells don't have to do so much, or varied work.

[Coriat]

InvisiblePink wrote:

The witch spell list is somewhat deficient thematically, but they're already very strong if played properly- solidly middle of tier 1. So it very much depends on how you define "hot garbage".

Does it fulfill the fantasy of being a witch? Probably not. Does it need a straight buff? Also no.

I pretty much agree with that. Played a bunch of witches before switching to 5e and while I think they are plenty strong enough, if not too strong, there were a couple gaping thematic holes in the spell list. I couldn't believe that they skipped nightmare for example, which is not on anyone's list of strong spells mechanically but which I really missed thematically while playing an evil witch. I wanted to torment enemies that got away with nightmares dang it.

[Derklord]

Cevah wrote:

Derklord wrote:

@Cevah: Nice list! I'd add Nine Lives for #1, and Spawn Calling for #5, though.

D20pfsrd renamed it Call the Godspawn. This does not work for #5, as the summoned creature is considered native to the Material Plane. It is not extraplanar.

Well, it's not technically an outsider, but seriously, have you read the full spell description? Long ritual, human sacrifice, making a creature of vengeance created by an evil god rise from a "fissure full of dark fire and shrieking cries"... the only way if that spell could be more with-y would be if the ritual would require flying around on broomsticks and having sex with incubi.

[Tsukiyo]

Coriat wrote:

I couldn't believe that they skipped nightmare for example,

Yeah, that was weird. Even stranger when they went on to give the witch Vision of Doom, Nightmare's nastier 7th level big brother. Love that spell.