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Can you trick attack a swarm? I know they are immune to the effects like flat footed,bleeding etc. but am wondering about the extra damage?
Trick attack doesn't have some trait like Precision damage that would prevent it from working, but I don't believe there is any weapon that can both be used to trick attack and affect a swarm.
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That was then. Fast forward almost 5 years and...
Q: **Can you use Explosive Rounds to trick attack Swarms?**
Background:
Now we have Explosive, Rounds, Small Arms
( https://aonsrd.com/WeaponDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rounds,%20Small%20Arms&F amily=Explosive )
which has the Fiery Property
( https://aonsrd.com/WeaponProperties.aspx?ItemName=Fiery )
Which says it "counts as a weapon with the explode special property against creatures with swarm defenses"
And Swarm Defense
( https://aonsrd.com/UniversalMonsterRules.aspx?ItemName=Swarm%20Defenses )
Says "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from effects that affect all targets in an area, such as grenades, blast and explode weapons, and many evocation spells."
The Power gamer in me says "yes you can trick attack and get and extra 50% damage on all of it as well."
The "I'm in this for Fun Gamer" in me want to verify my assumptions.
Thx :-)
I think the preponderance of the evidence is a no.
Trick attack repeatedly calls out the target of the trick.
You can trick or startle a foe and then attack when she drops her guard (BNW note singular). As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm. Just before making your attack, attempt a Bluff, Intimidate, or Stealth check (or a check associated with your specialization; see page 94) with a DC equal to 20 + your target’s CR. If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target (bnw note singular) is flat-footed against your attack. This damage increases to 1d8 at 3rd level, to 3d8 at 5th level, and by an additional 1d8 every 2 levels thereafter. You can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack
A swarm is immune to attacks and effects that targets a single creature
I think the preponderance of the evidence is a no.
Trick attack repeatedly calls out the target of the trick.
You can trick or startle a foe and then attack when she drops her guard (BNW note singular). As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm. Just before making your attack, attempt a Bluff, Intimidate, or Stealth check (or a check associated with your specialization; see page 94) with a DC equal to 20 + your target’s CR. If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target (bnw note singular) is flat-footed against your attack. This damage increases to 1d8 at 3rd level, to 3d8 at 5th level, and by an additional 1d8 every 2 levels thereafter. You can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack
A swarm is immune to attacks and effects that targets a single creature
A swarm is considered a single creature for the purpose of being targeted by an attack, so a trick attack with a weapon with the explode property (or a blast weapon, if you use a thasteron blunderbuss) would work, since the explosive ammo's fiery quality treats the weapon as having the Explode property when fired at a creature with the swarm subtype, overriding the single-target immunity that would apply with a normal bullet.
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Agree with CriticalQuit. If you can satisfy all of the requirements to both Trick Attack, and damage a swarm, then sure, go ahead and add your Trick Damage. There's nothing in Trick Attack or Swarm Defenses / Immunities that prevents it working, imo.
(Corollary: can you trick attack with the 'SMG style' small arms that have the automatic property? Trick attack says "you can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack" but is taking a full action to fire against multiple targets, as one does in automatic mode, a 'single attack'? You have to make an attack roll against each target, so if we accept one attack roll = one attack [and I'm not sure we do, lol] then firing in auto isn't 'a single attack.' I'd allow it because I err on the side of players doing crazy s!!~, but it is, admittedly, a pretty generous interpretation of the rules.)
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A swarm is considered a single creature for the purpose of being targeted by an attack
What gives you that idea? Almost everything in the swarm says the opposite.
A swarm is immune to attacks and effects that targets a single creature (including single-target spells) with the exception of mind-affecting effects if the swarm has an Intelligence score and an ability similar to the formian’s hive mind.
So you can't hit it with single target spells , it explicitly counts as not one creature to be targeted.
For the purpose of automatic fire, the swarm counts as five targets.
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Agree with CriticalQuit. If you can satisfy all of the requirements to both Trick Attack, and damage a swarm, then sure, go ahead and add your Trick Damage. There's nothing in Trick Attack or Swarm Defenses / Immunities that prevents it working, imo.
(Corollary: can you trick attack with the 'SMG style' small arms that have the automatic property? Trick attack says "you can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack" but is taking a full action to fire against multiple targets, as one does in automatic mode, a 'single attack'? You have to make an attack roll against each target, so if we accept one attack roll = one attack [and I'm not sure we do, lol] then firing in auto isn't 'a single attack.' I'd allow it because I err on the side of players doing crazy s**~, but it is, admittedly, a pretty generous interpretation of the rules.)
Trick Attack is a Full Action but not a Full Attack (which would typically take a -4 penalty), so you can't combine it with the Automatic trait text.
You can trick or startle a foe and then attack when she drops her guard. As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm. Just before making your attack, attempt a Bluff, Intimidate, or Stealth check (or a check associated with your specialization; see page 94) with a DC equal to 20 + your target’s CR. If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed against your attack. This damage increases to 1d8 at 3rd level, to 3d8 at 5th level, and by an additional 1d8 every 2 levels thereafter. You can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack. Source
Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 180
When you make a FULL ATTACK with a weapon in automatic mode, you can attack in a cone with a range of half the weapon’s range increment. This uses all the weapon’s remaining ammunition. Roll one attack against each target in the cone, starting with those closest to you. Attacks made with a weapon in automatic mode can’t score critical hits. Roll damage only once, and apply it to all targets struck. Each attack against an individual creature in the cone uses up the same amount of ammunition or charges as taking two shots, and once you no longer have enough ammunition to attack another target, you stop making attacks.
For example, if you were using a tactical X-gen gun with 27 rounds remaining, you would target the nearest 6 creatures in the cone and use up all 27 rounds.
If more than one creature is equidistant and you don’t have enough cartridges remaining to shoot at all equidistant creatures, determine randomly which one you target. You can’t avoid shooting at allies in the cone, nor can you shoot any creature more than once, even if you have enough cartridges to fire more shots than you have targets. Attacks in automatic mode take the same penalties as other full attacks. Source
Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 244
Full Action
A full action consumes all your effort during your turn, meaning if you choose to take a full action, you can’t take any other standard, move, or swift actions that turn. The most common full action is the full attack.
...
Full Attack
You can spend a full action to make two attacks, each with a –4 penalty to the attack rolls. These attacks can be made with the same weapon or different weapons, though certain weapons have a firing speed so slow that you can’t shoot them more than once in a round, even with a full attack. These weapons have the unwieldy special property (see page 182).
Certain weapons have special individualized full attacks. For instance, some weapons have a fully automatic attack mode. Sometimes special full attacks, such as the soldier’s onslaught class feature, require specialized training in order to gain their benefits.
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Trick Attack specifically use an Attack Action, which means the Automatic trait never comes into play since it specifically requires the Full Attack action.
Now, the Blast trait works (and does extra damage against swarms), but the only small arm that has it is the Thasteron Blunderbuss: Source
Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 180
For each attack you make with a weapon with the blast special property, roll one attack against each target in the cone, starting with those closest to you. Each attack takes a –2 penalty in addition to other penalties, such as the penalty to all attacks during a full attack. Roll damage only once for all targets. If you roll one or more critical hits, roll the extra critical damage only once (or any other special effects on a critical hit that require you to roll) and apply it to each creature against which you score a critical hit. You can’t avoid shooting at allies in the cone, nor can you shoot any creature more than once.
Attacks with blast weapons ignore concealment. A blast weapon doesn’t benefit from feats or abilities that increase the damage of a single attack (such as the operative’s trick attack). Ammunition for blast weapons is designed for blast attacks, so you spend the usage amount only once for each cone of attacks.
So, you probably can trick attack a swarm, but only with a specific level 4 weapon: Perhaps the upcoming optional scaling equipment rules will make this a practical option...
EDIT: Okay, Small Arms with the Line property would work as well, but they all seem to have the Unwieldy property that prevents them from making Trick Attacks...
Again, explosive weapons in any projectile weapon work fine against swarms.
So... I'm looking at Trick Attack, and I'm thinking that BogNorseWolf has a point here.
- First off, there's an argument to be made based on the wording that the trick attack itself is single-target... at which point the entire thing falls apart.
- dialing in, even if the trick attack itself somehow isn't, the Bluff/Intimidate/Stealth check pretty much is. It's got a target and everything. Admittedly, this can still work if you count Bluff and Intimidate as mind-affecting, and the target is an intelligent hivemind, but if your players want this interpretation, then be sure to remember that the next time they go up against skeletons.
So it's possible to get a trick attack while using a weapon that it's possible to hurt swarms with, I don't believe it's possible to get a trick attack against a swarm.
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So... I'm looking at Trick Attack, and I'm thinking that BogNorseWolf has a point here.
- First off, there's an argument to be made based on the wording that the trick attack itself is single-target... at which point the entire thing falls apart.
- dialing in, even if the trick attack itself somehow isn't, the Bluff/Intimidate/Stealth check pretty much is. It's got a target and everything. Admittedly, this can still work if you count Bluff and Intimidate as mind-affecting, and the target is an intelligent hivemind, but if your players want this interpretation, then be sure to remember that the next time they go up against skeletons.
So it's possible to get a trick attack while using a weapon that it's possible to hurt swarms with, I don't believe it's possible to get a trick attack against a swarm.
Per the FAQ, the Trick Attack skill checks don't actually need to meet the normal skill requirements: You can make a Stealth check even when you can't hide, a Driver can make a Piloting check even when no where near a vehicle, and a Bluff check can work when trick attacking a mindless foe, so a swarm's immunity probably won't come into play at the 'skill check' phase.
Can an Operative use a skill to make a Trick Attack without meeting the normal conditions for using that skill for other purposes? For Example, can an operative make a stealth check as part of a trick attack when they couldn't use stealth to hide from the target of the effect?
As for whether a swarm is immune to Trick Attack itself because it targets a single creature, it probably is: If I used a Blast weapon to make a Trick Attack against a non-swarm target, only my actual target would take the extra damage and anyone else caught in the area would just take normal weapon damage, so a swarm should probably be treated in a similar fashion and have only one member of the swarm take all the extra damage and become 'a little deader' than it otherwise would have been...