In a recent campaign, our casters have been having trouble with offensive spells having little no effect. The weird outsider opponents have excellent saves and/or high spell resistance. The golems are immune to most spells that are effected by spell resistance. The undead aren’t affected by charms. Dream creatures that are highly resistant to all four primary energy types. Etc…
Please Note: This is NOT a case of GM vs. players. This campaign was known to be deadly dangerous going into it. We expect to be fighting opponents that are very tough to handle. Most of the opponents are as printed. The few changes have made sense based upon our past actions. Plus, we aren’t a sneaky group, so opponents often have time to buff. We have no issues with what we have been facing. Please no accusations against the GM. That is not what this thread is about.
We do have an inquisitor that casts a few stacking buff spells. Plus occasionally one from the other casters. So that avenue is really covered fairly well. What I would like is a caster that can do something to these hard to effect opponents. I did consider a summoning/animating caster that floods the field with opponents to do damage. I am rejecting that option for 2 reasons. First, I’ve played too many characters that summon in the recent past for it to be all that much fun for me. Second, we have several new players at this table and I don’t want to confuse them or marginalize their contributions.
So that leads me to consider other options. I was thinking about a caster that specializes in spells that can get around those protections.
Spells that are not effected by spell resistance.
Spells that don’t have a save or are still very effective if the save is successful.
Sonic or force spells since almost nothing is resistant to those.
Any others that you can think of?
This seems like a lot of Ray spells. Which might mean I need precise shot.
Quite a few conjuration spells to control the battle field. Wall, pits, clouds, etc...
Just a quick rummage through my sketchy memory, it seems like most of these are the primary arcane spells. So it seems like my caster would almost have to be an Arcanist, Wizard, or Sorcerer.
I’m not remembering very many in the bard, druid, or cleric lists. Let me know if my memory is faulty.
Hmm… Not looked too much into the occult lists. Would that work better?
We are currently approaching level 9 in a campaign that is expected to go close to level 20.
So what I’m asking is:
Have you seen this done before? Did it work at least decent?
Which spells can you think of that would best fit into this concept?
How would you build this type of character?
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So I would go with either druid it arcanist,druids have a great debuff spell list, and much of it avoids spell resistence and saves
(Just look at wall of thorns...)
And when spells fail, wildshape/animal companion come in
Another option is arcanist, a full arcane caster, but whatninteally like about it, is you can learn any spell, like a wizard, but ince you prepare, you cast those spells spontaneously, it allows you to adapt on the fly, take quick study, and you can even switch what you've prepared, take pitebt magic, and you can boost your caster level by 2 (by spending an arcane reservoir point)
Lastly, items are your friend, get a rod of piercing
look at dweomers essence, it's not cheap, but you can use it as a material component, and it gives you a +5 against spell resistence,
an orange prism ioun stone boosts your CL by one
an other worldly kimono can boost it by 4, 6 when you use the maze effect
A numerogical cylinder is a fun little puzzle, pass your knowledge check with it, and you get a +2 to caster level checks (like spell resistence)
A strand of prayer beads (karma) can get you a plus 4 CL for spells being cast, it requires divine casting, or just use Use magic device.
A moon circlet can give you a +1 during a waxing moon, +2 during a full moon, but it gives a -1 during the wanting moon, so...meh
Other then that, I recommend playing an elf, you get elevan magic, for another +2
With the above tools, you will have a hard time finding monsters whose spell resistence you can't through :)
But if you do...there are traits that boost caster level checks, be adopted by a dwarf, and take strength of the land
Take spell penetration/greater spell penetration
Take deific obediance to nethys (really late level, you can get a 1d4 boost)
And look at spells like splinter spell resistence, it allows a fort save, but you cast it on the DPR charectir, and once a round when they hit, the creatures spell resistence goes down by 5.
There are a few ways to boost save DCs but remember, it's easier to debuff enemies, a cornagan smash using fighter with a cruel weapon can inflict shaken/sickened easily enough, and that's a -4 to all saves right there
If you do arcanist, look at school understanding void, it has an ablility that scales off caster level, and allows you to give a penalty in AC, and saves equal to 1/2 your caster level, it eats a standard action, and only lasts 1 round, but you can open the thing up for an ally, or use a rod of quicken to hit him yourself in the same round
Hope that helps :D
I can't rely on magic items unless our artificer can make it. In our campaign we haven't had much time in or near large cities with magic shops (although we think we are heading to one at the moment).
Adopted doesn't work like that. It only affects the 2 traits you take at first level. It doesn't affect your race. So you can't take the dwarven alternate racial traits. Very poor naming scheme.
Much of the rest of your list is very interesting though. I will look at the druid list. I've never seen one played as a debuff caster before. I will see how many there are that aren't affected by spell resistance.
I'd never heard of Splinter Spell Resistance before. That is a very interesting spell.
Psychics have many force/sonic options, and the overwhelming magic phrenic amplification helps overcome SR, especially when combined with spell penetration feats.
Dodging SR, saves and energy resistance all at once is hard. With a range of spells you can avoid each of the three at a time (or possibly two of the three) which may be good enough by your description.
Summon monster spells are about the only spells which meet all 3 requirements. They aren't more than a delaying tactic unless you specialise in them IME. Edit: and you rejected this as a tactic, nevermind.
Glitterdust has SR: no and doesn't do damage so energy resistance doesn't matter. Saves are constant for it of course.
The create pit line also avoids SR. Extra downsides: useless vs. flying creatures, can get in the way of your goons. Fleeting spell can minimize the last downside.
Magic missile does no-save force damage. Not a lot though.
Admonishing ray does force damage with no save. Extra downsides: You need to make touch attacks, it's often less than 1d6/level, it does nonlethal damage which some things are immune to.
Battering blast, admonishing ray's big brother, does normal force damage. It responds well enough to metamagic that it's a top spell to specialise in, but it's less impressive without that specialisation.
Black tentacles has no save and SR: no and does untyped damage...but things with good saves probably also have high enough CMD to resist it. CMD grows faster than you can optimise this spell, but it's a useful tool at 9th level.
Enervation (no save, damage in negative energy levels) is worthless as given but with heavy optimisation and metamagic can be scary.
And wall spells as you mention. I've generally found these overrated but YMMV.
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Basically summon monsters and/or be a wizard. Conjuration, evocation and necromancy have the most relevant spells.
Have you considered the witch (I should just have a pamphlet to hand out at this point)? Most witch hexes are Su abilities and as such are not subject to spell resistance, cannot be dispelled, do not provoke attacks of opportunity and do not require concentration checks. Also hex DCs scale at 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + Int mod.
A couple of examples:
On a successful save the Evil Eye hex still applies a penalty (at your level you can apply a -4 to AC,ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks) for one round (or 3+int mod on a failed save); as a move action the Cackle hex can be used to extend this duration by 1 round. It is mind-effecting however.
The Protective Luck hex can be applied to allies, requiring any attack rolls made against them to be rolled twice and the lower result taken. It'll last for 2 rounds (3 at level 16) and can be extended with Cackle. It's doesn't allow a saving throw and isn't mind effecting.
There's lots of nice archetypes for the witch but the Winter Witch archetype ties in nicely with the Winter Witch prestige class. With this prc spells, SLAs and Su abilities that deal cold damage treat affected creatures as having half their normal cold resistance. At later levels the half the ice damage caused by the Winter Witch's spells, SLAs and SU abilities comes from an otherworldly power and as such isn't subject to resistance or immunises to cold based attacks. By level 15 (prc level 10) to can cast cold descriptor spell as +12 caster level. You also get a +1 caster level checks to counter spell, dispel or penetrate SR with cold spells.
In theory if you were to use the Winter Witch archetype and were prepared to burn the necessary feats your evocation spells with cold descriptor could have +5 to their DCs: +1 for Ice Magic, +1 for Spell Focus:Evocation +1 Grater Spell Focus:Evocation, +1 for Elemental Focus: Cold and +1 for Greater Elemental Focus: Cold.
Rather usefully the Winter Witch archetype enables you to take the Frozen Caress hex. With this hex you can cause touch spells to deal 1d4 cold damage in addition to their regular effects and give them the cold descriptor. This makes the Elemental Focus feats more attractive since you can apply the bonuses to spells such as Bestow Curse. It is also worth noting that you can use Urea as a power component with cold descriptor spells to add +1 to the caster level for the purpose of the effect.
In summary, with the benefit of hexes, the ability to partially ignore energy resistance/immunity as well as caster level bonuses, a witch with the Winter Witch Archetype and Prc should be able to effectively contribute in most situations.
Strength if the land is a mgic trait, so it does work with adopted :)
IME, the most consistently useful low-level spell when fighting golems is grease. It ignores SR, so gets past their magic immunity, and big clunky constructs tend to have poor Dex and Reflex. The modifiers from being prone, and the AoO's from standing up, have made a HUGE difference in how deadly the encounter was.
I never realized most witch hexes weren't subject to SR. That is definitely worth considering. They have a bunch of nice debuffs.
I do like the void school.
Yes, grease is good for golems. Somehow we seem to have forgotten that old staple.
You guys are definitely giving me some things to think about.
Definitely consider the witch. In our last major fight I was able to badly cripple the BBEGs defences to the point that out fighter was hitting him on a roll of two.
The witch spell list is a bit of a weird mash up of wizard/sorc and cleric/druid. In some respects the witch spell list is less versatile than the wizard but in other respects it is more so; they might not have Invisibility or Make Whole but they can heal people and resurrect the dead. While there are the odd occasions where I wish I had X or Y exclusive wizard/sorcerer spell I think no matter what caster you play there'll be times you wish you could have a spell of another's list.
I would've also suggested the Veneficus witch archetype which allows you to take a limited selection of alchemist discoveries and poison creatures through your hexes. But if your campaign is undead, outsider and golem heavy then it won't be of much use unless you have access to poisons that work on undead and outsiders.
Just a thought but a Decanter of Endless Water could be an interesting combination with the Winter Witch's Freeze and Thaw, and Sculpt Ice and Snow abilities. Not so much for combat but you could use it to plug gaps, create obstacles and craft temporary ice objects which would give the witch a few more utility options. This is presuming the water from the decanter isn't itself magical.
If you can apply the Shaken, Frightened, Panicked, or Sickened condition, that applies a -2 to lots of things, including saves.
With [greater] spell penetration, you bump your CL by +2 [+4].
With [greater] spell focus, you bump your spell DC by +1 [+2].
With Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat, you get +2 CL on the CL check, or if they have the same spell available it goes to +4 on the check and +1 on actually casting it.
/cevah
Although I would love to do it, I've never been able to get anyone to go into teamwork feats with me.
As GM, I've had the bad guys use them against the party. They always seem amazed at how well some of them work. But then no one wants to do it themselves.
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The witch, which works well as a support character, will also allow you to use hexes to set up your new players and help them to shine. Plus you can use your spells when you get bored or the team needs more offense.
An debuff focused Invoker witch with 1 level dip into dual cursed oracle and an advanced familiar that can use a wand of Ill omen is a scary scary scary thing. Pump that Intelligence and watch as saves no longer become an issue as each enemy will have to roll 3 times and take the worst result.
Magic items to boost caster level.
Battering blast is particularly potent at higher levels, especially if you can get caster level boosted really high.
Golems are a pain in the nards though.
Also, Alchemists are great too. Tons of different bomb types that can get lots of damage out relatively quickly with potential for brutal debuffs and they are not technically spells either so no SR to worry about.
Fast bombs and manyshot or multishot or whatever can have you throwing like 5 different bomb types per turn, all hitting touch AC.
An debuff focused Invoker witch with 1 level dip into dual cursed oracle and an advanced familiar that can use a wand of Ill omen is a scary scary scary thing. Pump that Intelligence and watch as saves no longer become an issue as each enemy will have to roll 3 times and take the worst result.
That familiar better have a great UMD or you won't get that wand to work very often. [Due to the fact the spell is not on the familiar's spell list.]
/cevah
Although I would love to do it, I've never been able to get anyone to go into teamwork feats with me.
As GM, I've had the bad guys use them against the party. They always seem amazed at how well some of them work. But then no one wants to do it themselves.
In my experience, unless you have a class feature that helps you use and/or share teamwork feats more easily (cavalier, inquisitor, hunter), it's rare for anyone to invest in them. It's easy to give them to a team of NPCs for one scene set up to let them exploit their shared feat(s). It's a very different thing to ask two (or more) PCs to invest in the same feat, when they may or may not be able to use it regularly. (It's even chancier in PFS, where there's no guarantee that you'll ever play more scenarios with that other PC.)
I like to find ways to control the battlefield. Walls, pits and the like. Also, I've been playing an Arcane Trickster with Arcane Blast. AB itself is mediocre damage, but it's supernatural and therefore no save, no SR, no OA for casting and with sneak dice on it the damage becomes pretty respectable.
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In my experience, unless you have a class feature that helps you use and/or share teamwork feats more easily (cavalier, inquisitor, hunter), it's rare for anyone to invest in them. It's easy to give them to a team of NPCs for one scene set up to let them exploit their shared feat(s). ...
I have also used reoccurring NPC teams that demonstrated their effectiveness in a variety of situations.
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It's a very different thing to ask two (or more) PCs to invest in the same feat, when they may or may not be able to use it regularly. (It's even chancier in PFS, where there's no guarantee that you'll ever play more scenarios with that other PC.)
A party is already usually close enough for stealth synergy, steadfast, outlook, etc... to work nearly all the time.
The melee characters are very likely to work to be beside each other or to flank opponents for things like precise strike, outflank, pack attacks, shield wall, shielded caster, etc... to work very often. Why? Because they are a team working together and it just makes sense to use those effective tactics.
And these teamwork feats provide a bigger bonus than the feats they do take on a regular basis like iron will, combat casting, weapon focus. Besides which they stack with those standard feats.
Just to demonstrate the concept. There a couple of friends in our local PFS area. They have a couple of PC's they always play when they are both at the same table. All they took are combat teamwork feats. I don't think any are special bonus teamwork feats. Everyone is always amazed at how well they dominate combats with very little effort or risk. I don't think I have yet seen them seriously at risk of dying. They generally do the lions share of the damage in combat (don't rely on casters buffing them either).
A while back I was part of a group that started an PbP campaign which recruited players very specifically to make major use of teamwork feats just to see what would happen. Unfortunately, I had to drop out because of work and family commitments at the time. But last I heard it was still going strong. The GM commented that he has to keep ramping up the difficulty of the encounters beyond what he expected because the teamwork feats are making them so tough.
Yet no one else will even consider using teamwork feats. Neither in their home games nor with someone else they almost always play PFS with at the same time. I really don't get it.
{I will get off my ranting soap box now. This wasn't really the subject of the thread.}
Hmm... I have to admit, I've never even looked into the Words of Power system. All of my previous GM's didn't want to deal with it, so I never bothered. I doubt the current GM would have a problem with it though. He's relatively permissive as long as I make sure I understand it completely and don't eclipse the other players.