Hello everyone,
Me and my group have started a fresh campaign, and Ive decided to play a paladin this time. With the GM's permission I have decided to RP a paladin of Ragathiel, the general of vengeance.
I am looking for general advice on roleplaying this character. A few things to note.
I picked Ragathiel to add some character to the paladin beyond "I always do the right thing". The GM is cool with me playing fast and loose with LG alignment, so long as I pick a code of ethics and stick to it (i.e. I will only fall if I violate the code I come up with).
Some tenets Ive been thinking
1. Let no great evil go unpunished, let no victim go unavenged.
2. Let no lesser evil distract you from righteous vengeance.
3. Mercy is for the truly deserving. Those who genuinely seek redemption, and not only to avoid punishment, may seek refuge from my sword.
Really I am trying to come up with a list of tenets in line with the new paladin rules in 2nd ed (where you prioritize the highest tenet first).
Obviously you want oath of vengeance, i assume you are going that route due to #2. I had fun playing that character.. kinda went with a ghost rider vibe... he was not the most friendly of paladins and I actually opened a few people's eyes in the group how scary a paladin can be. I would skip #3 mercy and vengeance usually don't go hand in hand.
My advice is to remember to keep revenge and vengeance separate and distinct.
Revenge is a more personal form of vengeance and is usually centers around feelings of anger and resentment.
Perhaps make one of your strongest tenants that you will never seek vengeance for yourself (or those closest to you) because evil often attempts to confuse righteousness with revenge, by obscuring the path with anger and resentment.
Thats good advice guys!
The characters history is that of a crusader at the world wound. Upon seeing some of the horrors the demon hordes unleashed, and the unwillingness of the higher brass of the crusades to do what was necessary, he made a vow to slay an particular foe he saw crush an army.
But I like the idea of having to ride the line between holy vengeance and unholy violence to serve my own needs.
Bah the violence is the fun part :) Seriously though, my paladin was VERY violent..party jokingly called him a berserker paladin. You are right to get your code in order. My paladin followed the code, the honor part the gm would sometimes argue with me..aka he sent some goblin children at the character with weapons and he killed them. Gm claimed it was evil, but I pointed out they were trying to kill me. I would avoid taking prisoner too, makes life easier :)
Meh, I'd have taken care of them with nonlethal damage and left them to recover on their own, or the wildlife would have eaten them. Odds are they'd have died before reaching maturity anyway, that's why Goblins have so many children.
True, but I made the paladin partly to go against type. Most members in the group had a preconceived notion of what a paladin was. Heck the paladin was a atheist too. Had one member's head nearly explode on that one. (Granted the character was granted the power from a "dead" god but only I and the gm knew that)
Have you seen Ragathiel's Paladin Code?
I hadnt actually seen that, I'll pour over it a bit more.
The final tenet seems interesting. If my character sees an evil creature, must he wait until he sees the creature doing something evil to stop it?
In my opinion, the thing that makes a Paladin of Ragathiel different than other Paladins is they are more focused on specifics.
If they come across a farmhouse where everyone has been murdered by demons, they want to hunt down the particular demons that did it. Of course like all paladins they would be against all demons, and all paladins would want to stop these particular ones, but the focus is different. The Ragathiel Paladin seems to personalize the bad guys, they want to right specific wrongs, deal with particular problems. The big picture has less of an interest for them then the cases they are focused on.
If for example, a Paladin of Ragathiel was tracking a quary, and heard of another problem where they might be needed, the would be less likely than other Paladin's to abandon their pursuit. The specific evildoer they are focused on consumes their interest. Only after they have made him pay for his crimes are they going to look for the next problem.
I see.
So here is a situation I ran into in our last play through that caught me up.
Im a member of the Mendevian crusade, and my party ran into a group of orcs. My GM informs us that orc have been raiding and threatening one of the boarders of Lastwall.
Now as a member of the crusade, and a believer in doing what is necessary for the greater good, I would think I should attack these orcs. But I haven't seen these orcs in particular do anything wrong.
But I haven't seen these orcs in particular do anything wrong.
Investigate.
See if someone can track from the last known raid to a specific camp. Send the rogue in to try to find loot that can be tied back to raids. Depending on how saucy you feel, walk right up and ask (there are probably ways to do that without being "lawful stupid").
Walk up and intiate a conversation. It's a great way to figure out if someone is evil or not, and definitely will help your allies get into an ambushing position.
But I haven't seen these orcs in particular do anything wrong.
Beyond what pocsaclypse wrote, which I agree with, relating to my above points, with a vengeance focus you definitely want to know what (if anything) they did wrong.
In the opposite case, you catch some orcs red-handed raiding. Obviously you are going to see them punished for that. But you would care about any other crimes, as best you could find out about them. Even if they were going to die anyway (or had already been killed) finding out if they had hurt anyone else would matter to you. Just like our modern police would investigate other victims of someone already on death row. Part of vengeance is being the voice of the victims, and a personal focus on individuals. You don't meet out vengeance for raiding, you meet out vengeance for raiding the Smith farm and brutally murdering Molly Smith and her 3 children. For you it is more about the personal than the abstract. And if the same Orcs also raided the Miller farm, then you would want that to be part of the vengeance too, even if the penalty is the same either way.
As a GM, I expect the following tenets to be upheld by a Paladin character mainly for the sake of gameplay and should be used in addition to Ragathiel's code:
The Paladin should lead by example, not by instruction.
Respect others who have different beliefs and values - Intolerance is not good.
Revenge and vengeance are chaotic motivations *See below
Being Lawful Stupid does not reflect well on yourself or your God (rolled into this is the pointless or futile self sacrifice)
As GM I always remember that impossible moral quandaries always have a right answer. Even if the player doesn't know it the character would and the player can always ask me what their character would know is the right choice.
Now given that vengeance, as opposed to justice, is a chaotic motivation but Ragathiel is a LG God of Vengeance then the distinction between Ragathiel's divine vengeance and mortal vengeance must be made. Ragathiel's vengeance is the delivery of justice (never seeking disproportionate retribution) and the Paladin is the tool that delivers.
Playing an implement of divine vengeance will be hard. You must never overlook wrongdoing but at the same time must never act without proof or act excessively, e.g. killing those that don't deserve it. I can't imagine the God of vengeance will be lenient to those Paladins that have killed those that don't deserve it and a fallen Paladin is the end result.
It's also worth noting that under Ragathiel's code, evil must only avenged against the innocent. Just because someone detects as evil, doesn't mean they've done anything wrong against the innocent. It also asks whether any action need be taken against a dragon that slaughters a band of goblins and steals their treasure when the goblins robbed and murdered to acquire the treasure in the first place. Likewise is raising a zombie from a murderer's body an act to be avenged?
Now given that vengeance, as opposed to justice, is a chaotic motivation
Interesting take, but I can't agree. Vengeance isn't necessarily opposed to justice at all. Basically, vengeance in this use means just punishment, and is very much a lawful concept. Mercy would, as opposed to justice, be a chaotic motivation.
Vengeance could drift into evil, rather than good, if it is disproportionate (i.e. unjust) but it seems to me the concept: payback for wrongdoing remains lawful.
Your other 'code' additions may work well for your group, and might well be good rules for 'conduct' of your players (and apply to more than just paladins) but I don't think they really fit in a Paladin's code.
A Paladin that also wanted to preach shouldn't fall.
A Paladin that isn't tolerant shouldn't fall (several of the Paladin deities have quite intolerant aspects.) Intolerance may not be good, but it isn't (by itself) evil either. Having a dirty mouth isn't good, but I certainly imagine that some Paladins curse, they aren't just one personality after all (and once again, at some tables a rule against anyone, Paladin's or otherwise, cursing may be appropriate for that setting and group.)
A Paladin who is lawful stupid shouldn't fall. First off, there are lots of interpretations of this, but the idea that Paladin's sometime sacrifice themselves for the greater good, even if that good is mostly just symbolic is pretty well established.
Now obviously, every player should make a character that will fit in with the other PCs and be focused on the campaign. That is just good manners, and what works in one situation may be totally inappropriate for any other. Often a Paladin can represent a special challenge in that, and certainly it should be looked at, but that isn't the only type of character that creates that problem and an in game punishment system (your paladin falls because I don't like how it effects the dynamic of the group) is't usually the best solution.
Interesting take, but I can't agree. Vengeance isn't necessarily opposed to justice at all. Basically, vengeance in this use means just punishment, and is very much a lawful concept. Mercy would, as opposed to justice, be a chaotic motivation.
I tend to agree with this statement. Vengeance is all about repayment of a debt owed. It deals with fairness and unfairness, certainly a lawful (order) concept. Revenge, on the other hand, is certainly a more chaotic concept, seeking repayment that might not be equal or deserved, fueled by emotions that by their nature are not orderly or measured.
Yes. Consider it proof against the standard Paladin horror stories of "It pinged as evil, SMITE."
Not really seeing that there. It pinged as evil so smite" the smiting wouldn't be based on their race it would be based on the ping.
Which.. kinda is a legitimate way to play a paladin of Ragathiel.
For the deific obedience and the crimson Templar abilities you technically have to wait until they coming an evil or unlawful action. (Yes unlawful... Somewhat uncomfortable...)
I could totally see the Paladin just following a suspect, waiting for them to do something wrong, and then going bonkers on them.
I'm really happy I took the forums for help.
I think the burning question in my mind is, Is it justice to wait for an evil act to be meted out? Is there such a thing as preemptive justice.
For example, an orc tribe has been attacking Lastwall. I see a group of orcs, must I wait for them to do something wrong, if it is not to much of a jump to assume they will do something evil in the future.
I guess I assumed the character would be far more willing to "do what is necessary" and act as the heavenly assassin. I'm thinking I might be getting Ragathiel wrong.
Well that is specifically for his deific obedience.
I see Ragathiel as hardcore and a Paragon of virtue. It is so easy to follow his steps and fall (so easy!) that only the best of the best can handle it.
Kind of like how Mace Windu channeled aggression and the dark side without corrupting himself, if you will.
It's uh... Really tricky. That LG can look so similar to CE does make this very interesting.
Personally, I would go for waiting to slay the Orcs. Ragathiel as a half Devil understands prejudice, and has the highest proportion of 'monstrous paladins'.
I think a bold Paladin like this could confront the Orcs, and demand to hear their intent and what they are willing to do to protect the innocent. Instant Orcs prove they're evil, he goes ham.
I hope you have fun with it! Hardcore Empyreal Lords are great, my favorite is Vildeis.
I'm really happy I took the forums for help.
I think the burning question in my mind is, Is it justice to wait for an evil act to be meted out? Is there such a thing as preemptive justice.
For example, an orc tribe has been attacking Lastwall. I see a group of orcs, must I wait for them to do something wrong, if it is not to much of a jump to assume they will do something evil in the future.
I guess I assumed the character would be far more willing to "do what is necessary" and act as the heavenly assassin. I'm thinking I might be getting Ragathiel wrong.
You need some reason to believe that they deserve divine justice apart from them being orcs. Evidence of them attacking or showing up as evil on your detect evil would work: if you show up as evil you probably did something to deserve it.
Wow this went down the rabbit hole quick. So by definition revenge is more personal, less concerned with justice and more about retaliation by inflicting harm. While vengeance is to punish a wrongdoing with the intent of seeing justice done. So if you come upon a village that was slaughtered you are hunting them down to make sure they face justice due to the act and not about how it might have made you angry that they did so. The result might be the same but that might be a conflict your character will have.
So by your example you will come upon a conflict with the tenent "I will strive not to act upon prejudice against fellow mortals based on race or origin." Perhaps a knowledge local check might let you know if there are other tribes in the area. Or the tracker in the party might let you know if they are the ones. There are some things you can do. Where you truly shine is when you are faced with EVIL...undead, demons, outsiders etc etc.
I think Ragathiel is more worried about the big picture "war on devils" type. "preemptive justice" is a slippery slope you have to remember people can be evil and not planning to kill anyone. A king/mayor could be lawful evil and still the kingdom could prosper. So try not to ping and smite :)
I remember nothing made my character happier than a clear cut bad guy he could attack. Moral grey area can get annoying after awhile, see where your gm is going with it and how flexible they will be with you.
Absolutely. Being able to maintain killing one opponent a day for your power pretty much requires that you spend all your time in Hell hunting, or some other gruesome front line.
@Dave Justus and Deathless One. I see where you are coming from though several dictionary definitions (Mirriam Webster, Oxford and Dictionary.com) together suggest that vengeance is a cover-all term for revenge, justice and retribution. The common theme is that vengeance is punishment for a misdeed but that the punishment does not necessarily fit the misdeed and is typically, but not necessarily, excessive. Revenge is personally motivated whereas vengeance need not be. It is the typically excessive element, which could be viewed as setting an example/warning to make sure overs do not perform the same misdeed which leads me to consider it chaotic. I.e. it is not bound by a legal code or a moral code beyond that of the avenger. The more refined forms of vengeance - i.e. justice and retribution, I agree are lawful.
@Darkblood2442. For pre-emptive justice you would need proof that the specific individuals were absolutely going to commit the crime. In the real-world a member of an outlaw motorcycle gang cannot be arrested for the crimes that the gang is known to be involved in unless it can be proven that the individual is personally involved. It would certainly not be lawful or good to incarcerate all Harley Davidson riders with long hair (substituting for a description of a game world Orc) because they superficially match the description of some criminals. A similar standard is likely to exist in the game world. You cannot kill every Orc you meet because some Orcs killed some villagers.
Thanks guys! You are all great.
I think I only have one more question.
I get the idea that I cant be racist against orcs, I did some more reading on the race and I think I thought of them in LotR terms (always evil).
Are fiends different though? As an ex crusader, I know my character is gonna have some strong beliefs about the world wound, his main drive is helping the crusader and sealing the breach (he knows this isnt likely in the current situation). Given that I assumed almost all fiends would be on a first see first kill basis. It isnt a personal hatred that drives him to want to fight fiends, but a sense of duty to the world.
Big thing in the tenant is it says "mortal races" But yeah a fiend should give your a character a smile on his face because life just got simpler. :)
Ragathiel’s father is Dispater. That is probably the reason for the part in the code about judging by race. Your Deity is half fiend. That does not mean you will not fight against them, but I think that you would still give them a chance if they show they can be redeemed.
Guess in the end everything can be grey if you want it to be. Which always hurts the paladin because you want that world of black and white. I would talk to your gm and see what kind of world he runs. To me goblins and orcs are just evil. (Check out goblin slayer for proof) Drizzt always comes up when people talk about redeemable races.. but he was always a rarity and not a rule. You can assume every drow is a drizzt in waiting but more likely they will kill you horribly.
Ah thats why I went with the golden rule..talk to the gm and see what world he runs. Personally I don't care for them making things grey..the more you do that the more you need to worry about if it is the right or wrong thing... Even before goblin slayer my players would fear them, even at mid levels. Pretty soon every encounter will have to start with "Excuse me good goblin.. do you plan to eat my face with those sharp teeth or are you here for the dentist?"
Thanks for all the input everyone!
Here is the tenets I have so far, (my gm wanted me to update the ideology to seconds rules). We play later today, so itll get some action!
1. I am divine vengeance. Let no great evil go unpunished.
2. Rage is a virtue and a strength only when focused against the deserving. I will never seek disproportionate retribution, I will not take personal relish in my divinely sanctioned task.
3. I will not let small injustices distract me from my higher purpose.
4. Redemption finds hearts from even the cruelest origins. I will strive not to act upon prejudice against fellow mortals based on race or origin.
5. My word is my oath. I will strive to uphold it.
I know its not quite cannon, but I think it will strike an interesting balance for the character. He is a brash, violent paladin, but still focused on punishing the deserving.
Depending on how you want to play your character you could also bump up the redemption item (4).
After all from a fluff perspective redemption is a big topic for Ragathiel.
In our kingmaker campaign I played a pali of Ragathiel and whenever we....