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Has anyone done any Homebrew separating these two? Making him the High Priest of, or Avatar of; making him the son of or lover of? Anyone make Xanderghul a semi-real illusory double of The Peacock Spirit or anything? Just so that they are two, and not one-and-the-same?
Creative Director
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I agree with you that this needs to happen. The whole Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit makes a great big hole in versimilitude (in setting consistency), which bugs me a lot.
The cult of the Peacock Spirit clearly has functioning clerics who can cast spells (up to an example of a 12th level caster = 6th level spells). Given Xandy has been stripped of mythic power, how are they still functional clerics? Conclusion: There is another power behind the Cult of the Peacock Spirit than Xanderghul...
For what it's worth...
He was stripped of mythic power, yes, but he's still got the ability to grant divine spells. That power did NOT get stripped from him.
None of that is to say you can't separate him and the Peacock Spirit in your game, of course, but as written it doesn't cause a hole in setting consistently at all.
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For me, I had a little homebrew already designed for The Peacock Spirit that I had been using, albeit peripherally (maybe even noncommittally), for quite a few years. Obviously I left the design quite open and incomplete because I knew one day we would get some info, but I'm totally thrown off by Xanderghul being The Peacock Spirit. ....The past few months I've thought about merging the homebrew material I have on The Peacock Spirit with Xanderghul, and that may be the direction I end up taking in my Pathfinder Campaign Setting for my games. But it just seems off. Maybe it will grow on me.
That said, if there's a way to separate them that others have designed, that could also help me out. Now I'm just struggling to come to grips with it.
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IIRC, there were some entries about the possibility of Xanderghul being the Peacock Spirit on the Conspiracy Theories of Golarion thread these past few years. (The basic line of thought was that if Razmir was trying to do it - without even being mythic yet - and the actual mythic rules allowed for some sort of divine ascension, then it seemed logical that Xanderghul could indeed be the Peacock Spirit.) There might be something useful in those particular posts.
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I'm not really sure if there is much stuff to do when it comes to separating them because to be honest, we didn't really know enough about Peacock Spirit's faith to know what it was like. I'm myself really happy with the twist so I don't really see need to create own version of Peacock Spirit for myself, but if you want to separate them for whatever reason you just basically need to figure out two things:
1) Why would such ultimate narcissist like Xanderghul worship a god that isn't himself? Like, how would Peacock Spirit's worship appeal to his pride? Maybe Peacock Spirit would be somehow subservient to Xanderghul instead of other way around making Xanderghul prideful about how even gods bow to him. 2) What you want the faith to be like, as you would be essentially creating new character we don't know anything about, you could do pretty much just whatever you want.
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I always thought that the ultimate source of Pride would be to start up a cult of personality that only you knew was based around yourself. Then, when I saw that mythical ability where you become a demigod, I just figured it was that.
While it might seem disappointing that, oh, it was him all along, just think of the look on Karzoug's or Krune's faces if they'd ever found out.
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For me, I guess I never knew that Xanderghul was a 'high priest of' The Peacock Spirit. But of course if I had read that somewhere I likely wouldn't have had a problem with it -- narcissistic RuneLord of Illusion/Pride worships beautifully-feathered bird-god.
But I don't recall having read that.
In my game, back in Thassilonian times, under the RuneLords, The Peacock Spirit, Lissala, and even Count Ranalc (since The First World has so many ingresses into Varisia) were revered by the Varisians under the oppressive rule of the RuneLords. Count Ranalc was worshiped by Varisians with more anger and frustration against the RuneLords. Lissala was worshiped by Varisians who idealistically wished to learn the power of magic and the ancient history of their ancestors and improve their caste. and The Peacock Spirit was worshiped as a symbol of beauty and hope, maybe even healing or at least consolation, under the oppressive Runelords. (Green Mother and Lantern King a little, too)
Now, I never really thought into it too much and it hasn't seen game time in any of my campaigns -- it was just stuff I thought sounded good and made sense when I first read about them years and years ago, stuff I came up with based on my first impressions of these entities we knew so little about. So it won't be too much of an issue to change what's been sloshing around my head-canon the past decade or so.
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Just think of the look on Karzoug's or Krune's faces if they'd ever found out.
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That's what intrigues me. And makes me consider changing my thoughts.
But I don't give a damn about the look on Karzoug or Krune's face -- I want it to be the look on the Players' faces.
If my PCs have it in their heads that the Peacock Spirit was a symbol of hope and beauty and condolences for the Varisians during the Thassilonian Empire -- and they talk to present day Varisians about The Peacock Spirit and find some of its old shrines and sacred places (such as the one in Roderic's Cove) -- then late in the campaign the look on THEIR faces when they learn it was Xanderghul the whole time could be a really good gaming moment.
And I see Xanderghul inventing The Peacock Spirit (not unlike a Vigilante) so that his peasants and slaves would worship him; it's brilliant design.
....But I'm still uncertain. In my head at least, none of the RuneLords were powerful enough to be godlike in giving Clerics and Oracles spells. (just like Razmir isn't powerful enough) And I really like The Peacock Spirit as a godlike symbol for the ancient Varisians.
Clearly more thought is required.
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In the mythic game I ran a few years ago, one of my players took Divine Source 3 times to become a quasi-deity (and later a lesser through story). That mythic abilities was something that always stood out as super role-play and I'm glad to see that Paizo used it on one of their big bads, even if it did play a divine switcheroo on Golarion.
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In my head at least, none of the RuneLords were powerful enough to be godlike in giving Clerics and Oracles spells. (just like Razmir isn't powerful enough) And I really like The Peacock Spirit as a godlike symbol for the ancient Varisians.
Clearly more thought is required.
Just to note a few things crunch-wise about the relative power differences between the most powerful Runelords and someone like Razmir ...
Three of the last Runelords had mythic/epic power. This was established at least as far back as ISMagic (2011), with that list of mini-portraits and other information. Karzoug was Wizard 20. By comparison, Razmir is Wizard 19 in that same list, so he's not even in reach of the Immortality arcane discovery for wizards (from UM; instead of the Wizard 20 class feat).
Also, the general power ranking given by JJ in his "Ask" thread supported it: Xanderghul at the top, and then in descending order Sorshen, Alaznist, Karzoug, and then the final three. Karzoug was in the middle and already known to be Wizard 20, so it stands to reason that those who were more powerful than him had epic/mythic levels.
And it's already been pointed out that in PF's mythic rules it is possible to become some sort of deity.
So Xanderghul definitely had the option of inventing and becoming the Peacock Spirit. Sorshen and Alaznist chose other mythic paths to power. At Wizard 20 Karzoug was on the cusp of going epic/mythic, needing one more level. By comparison, Razmir needs to gain enough XP for two more levels.
Personally, if I get the chance to run this particular AP, I might be tempted to let the entire 10,000 years/murder/revival/face modern adventurers ("known to be the most destructive force in the universe") experience ultimately be some sort of game-changer for Xanderghul. If he survives the PCs, he might decide to change his approach to power a bit (similar to how Sorshen has changed, although not in the same direction). In other words he is still prideful, but no longer seeking Runelord status. Instead, he forges ahead as a revived/new deity of pride and colour/illusion magic. Maybe not precisely how the Varisians interpreted him as the Peacock Spirit, but closer than he was before.
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At Wizard 20 Karzoug was on the cusp of going epic/mythic, needing one more level. By comparison, Razmir needs to gain enough XP for two more levels.
Minor point:
Mythic isn't Epic, it is entirely independent of level progression and entirely subjected to the GM.You could be Commoner 1 / Mythic 10, and while that's obviously an exaggerated example, the scaling of the SGs of various mythic abilities (10 + Mythic Tier + Attribute) suggests that "one mythic tier per two levels" is roughly the planned progression.
In any case, thinking of Mythic as "one level past 20" is wrong.
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I know that. However, originally the relevant NPCs were described has having epic levels, which is why I included the term "epic" in the post. Also, the ISMagic notation ("20+") indicated that "it should be considered a minimum level - that character's actual level and power are beyond even that of a 20th level character in some way, and they may even rival the power of a god".
The main point was that they were über powerful, and that one of them (X) did choose the "divine ascension" path to even more power.
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What’s most interesting to me, is that I always thought the Peacock Spirit was related to Sivanah, much like how Razmir is suggested to be. The reason this is fascinating, is that (if true) she has now made two LE powerful wizards ito “pet projects” of hers, both of whom have followed moderately similar paths of powerful statesmen and rulers of a country with designs for immortality and divinity.
In less-canonical things...
In our games (specifically Kingmaker), I designed a character who (it is suggested by hints) was made from a kind of gestalt of Renalc (the body), Dou-Bral (a piece of his soul from before senior psycho pants took over for the soul), and the Peacock Spirit (for the spirit) by Nex from within his Crux to possess/become as a means to escape said Crux, gain hypothetical extreme potential power, and avoid Geb. It was kind of a massive success-but-also-failure, and resulted in an exceptionally brilliant 1st level wizard who (delusionally?) believed he was from another existence entirely. How much of this is true is left up for debate, though, as it turned out, he was a daggum dead-ringer for Renalc... He also was a powerful LG wizard who followed the path of a a powerful statesman (once again, he was a king) and made excessive use of illusion (especially shadow) magic to create a kingdom of “miracles” out of the Stolen Lands, in seeming direct opposition to Razmir (my character considered Razmir a rival and a failure; he, at great personal expense, supported quite a few anti-Razmir initiatives, to prevent Razmir from intruding into the River Kingdoms and Stolen Lands). Which seems to be the kind of trick a goddess of trickery might pull.
(There shouldn’t be real spoilers, but the short of it is I made a character who came to consider Razmir a personal rival, became King, and used lots of illusion magic to make a “miraculous” kingdom; this feels like a pattern...)
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Has anyone done any Homebrew separating these two? Making him the High Priest of, or Avatar of; making him the son of or lover of? Anyone make Xanderghul a semi-real illusory double of The Peacock Spirit or anything? Just so that they are two, and not one-and-the-same?
As an aside, as a mythic illusionist whose origin is within the 3.5 rules, and considering he was created by James Jacobs, an author of Frostburn, it is exceptionally likely that he has access to magic that exists nowhere else... like the ability to create an exact replica of himself out of ice and snow that just so happens to be infinitely loyal, while also wanting nothing more than to murder him...
(I believe the 9th level spell ice assassin came from the book Frostburn, and I think James was one of the listed authors of that book, though I don’t have it in front of me at present; either way, it’s pretty great: you should get it! Also it has a mini-adventure in the back that fits surprisingly well with this theme...)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Has anyone done any Homebrew separating these two? Making him the High Priest of, or Avatar of; making him the son of or lover of? Anyone make Xanderghul a semi-real illusory double of The Peacock Spirit or anything? Just so that they are two, and not one-and-the-same?As an aside, as a mythic illusionist whose origin is within the 3.5 rules, and considering he was created by James Jacobs, an author of Frostburn, it is exceptionally likely that he has access to magic that exists nowhere else... like the ability to create an exact replica of himself out of ice and snow that just so happens to be infinitely loyal, while also wanting nothing more than to murder him...
(I believe the 9th level spell ice assassin came from the book Frostburn, and I think James was one of the listed authors of that book, though I don’t have it in front of me at present; either way, it’s pretty great: you should get it! Also it has a mini-adventure in the back that fits surprisingly well with this theme...)
Bingo! I finally had, like, five minutes!
Notice the "Wolfgang Baur" and "James Jacobs" as listed "authors"...
Also, according to other sources, the spell Ice Assassin (). I'd crack open my book, but I'm busy and spent way too much time reading that spell again.
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As I'm running my Runelords plotlines in Neverwinter Nights on a server set in Forgotten Realms, becoming a god is a tad more restricted and prohibitive than it is in Golarion, so I had to switch it up.
The Peacock Spirit in my plots thus became an early alias of Tiamat, in a guise the Thassilonian Netherese were more keen to accept. I'll probably try tying Xanderghul at least in part to an aspect of hers, in addition to his current interpretation as a sort of magely Doctor Doom with simulacra in different identities having spied on rising civilizations for eons while the true Xanderghul is hidden away in Cyrusian (which in my game is hidden on the Astral Plane, anchored to the corpse of the kaiju phase spider Chupoclops).
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"Thassilonian Netherese"! What an idea!
(Who would win in a fight between Szass Tam and, say, Alaznist or Zutha or Xanderghul?!)
In my version, tough choice.
Alaznist has a magical artifact gizmo that's keeping her immortal and she just dissolves into elemental energy and returns to her runewell if her body is destroyed so long as that device exists. (Her plot is a revised version of the War of Burning Skies campaign.)
Zutha of course has the Gluttonous Tome he can resurrect from. Which probably is the easiest of this batch to destroy... Except that you have to destroy all three pieces at one time, or they tend to recreate one another.
And Xanderghul has tons of simulacra carrying copies of himself, thus truly destroying him is a quite the daunting challenge. Killing one just replaces him or her with another, probably wearing a different face and using a different name in a different part of the world. They're all Xanderghul and one day all shall know so and be awed, but times must be right first.
So Tam can't simply rely on "I'm a lich with a well-hidden phylactery, I'll win via attrition".
In a throw down fight, probably Alaznist, as my version of her isn't super susceptible to necromancy, and Xanderghul doesn't need to be able to win throw down fights, he wins via more intrigue based means. ;)
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Okay how 'bout this?.... Szass Tam is CR 32 (if I remember correctly from 3.5). Belimarius is
If you were to do a Homebrew statblock for Szass Tam today I think he'd probably be around CR 25, Mythic Rank 3 or 4 maybe.
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I think for me, it just makes me want to have, as I DM my campaign, a 'chapter' where the PCs go to Faerun through some Thassilonian time-portal-gate-thing and deal with some stuff in Myth Drannor or Netheril or something. Maybe have The Symbul make an appearance. ....Have Mordenkainen from GH show up.
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Yeah admittedly their power levels in my games are adjusted to fit the leveling curve of the server, so they're all around CR 30 give or take, since the players tend to linger in the 18-22 range and I tend to run events for 6-8 people at once.
Were I doing PnP instead, your numbers sound about right.