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This question seems like it should be simple to answer based on page 191. Let's use a hypothetical fully grown animal companion with a STR mod of +4. A large creature has twice the bulk limit of a medium or small creature, so our horse has an encumbered limit of 18 bulk. Which sounds pretty good, except that heavy barding uses 8 of that, and we can infer from the petrified condition on page 323 that a medium creature has 8 bulk.
So our mount is already only 2 bulk away from encumbered, and this assumes the rider's equipment is already factored into their 8 bulk rating. (Which is a pretty big abstraction to handwave, but let's go with it for the moment because otherwise an armored knight on an armored horse moves at 20 feet and I doubt that is intended. It is possible that a petrified medium creature might turn all their gear to stone, and therefore that shaves off much of the difference between wearing armor and normal clothes-- this allows for more variance in the actual bulk of creatures. But then this becomes a headache.)
The issue for me is the "treats as light" rule. A large creature treats items of 1 bulk as light bulk, and items of light bulk as negligible. So a horse can carry unlimited light bulk items, for example. And it can carry 10 1 bulk items before it actually counts as a bulk. So our hypothetical horse can carry 180 longswords before being encumbered, which is hilarious.
What isn't clear to me is how our horse treats an item of 2 bulk, or 3 bulk, or perhaps more pertinently, 8 bulk. Does the horse treat 8 bulk as 8 bulk, and therefore winds up with 16 when wearing heavy barding and carrying a medium rider? Or does he wind up counting an 8 bulk item as 8light bulk, and therefore the rider and barding only counts as 1 bulk, 6 light?
The former seems rather punitive, and not logical compared to carrying 160 longswords. The latter seems too lax and even less logical-- a horse could carry 10 people on it. I suspect the former is the case, and the obvious solution to me is lower the bulk on heavy barding a few notches. (Also, let's get some more specific guidance on the bulk of people and their equipment.)
To muddle the matter further, the Phantom Steed can carry your body weight plus 20 bulk. That's significantly more than an actual horse can carry based on my calculations but seems like it might be what the game actually expects-- 20 bulk plus a rider seems pretty decent for a pack animal. The way it uses the words "body weight" makes me think the rider's gear is counted against this 20 bulk limit though.
So yeah, what say we all? Does my reasoning check out?
Yeah your reasoning checks out completely to me, one of those things that I'd hope gets clarified. You've inspired me to make another post for discussing how carts work.
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This question seems like it should be simple to answer based on page 191. Let's use a hypothetical fully grown animal companion with a STR mod of +4. A large creature has twice the bulk limit of a medium or small creature, so our horse has an encumbered limit of 18 bulk. Which sounds pretty good, except that heavy barding uses 8 of that, and we can infer from the petrified condition on page 323 that a medium creature has 8 bulk.
First gripe: Why did it take until there before we even find out how much Bulk our own characters are supposed to be? Shouldn't that NOT be buried under a condition description?
Second gripe: Bulk is derived from weight plus unwieldiness. Ergo, same weight plus additional unwieldiness means more Bulk. So when Tieflings finally come out, are Tieflings with horns, tails, or both going to be 9 Bulk or more?
Third gripe: So a Medium flesh-and-blood creature is 8 Bulk and it takes being petrified to reach 16 Bulk. 1 Bulk is 5 to 10 pounds, so average Humans on Golarion weigh between 40 and 80 pounds. In the meantime, I'm a flesh-and-blood real life Human who hovers around 180 pounds. Thank God I don't have body-image issues, or I'd be depressed. Nevertheless, while I joked in another thread that Wayne Reynolds needed to go back and redo all the art for the Iconics to account for how conservative they need to be regarding their choice of carried gear, apparently he really does need to redo all the art. Valeros is supposed to be little more than an emaciated skeleton, rather than healthy and muscled, I guess.
So our mount is already only 2 bulk away from encumbered, and this assumes the rider's equipment is already factored into their 8 bulk rating. (Which is a pretty big abstraction to handwave, but let's go with it for the moment because otherwise an armored knight on an armored horse moves at 20 feet and I doubt that is intended. It is possible that a petrified medium creature might turn all their gear to stone, and therefore that shaves off much of the difference between wearing armor and normal clothes-- this allows for more variance in the actual bulk of creatures. But then this becomes a headache.)
Agreed for the moment, but honestly, when I read it, I thought we WERE supposed to be counting the rider's equipment as separate from his own 8 Bulk value. 'Cause otherwise, my Str 16 Medium character could carry two Str 16 Halflings and have them carry all my gear, right?
The issue for me is the "treats as light" rule. A large creature treats items of 1 bulk as light bulk, and items of light bulk as negligible. So a horse can carry unlimited light bulk items, for example. And it can carry 10 1 bulk items before it actually counts as a bulk. So our hypothetical horse can carry 180 longswords before being encumbered, which is hilarious.
Incorrect. Bulk rounds down, 9 Light Bulk counts as 0, so the horse can carry 189 longswords before being encumbered.
What isn't clear to me is how our horse treats an item of 2 bulk, or 3 bulk, or perhaps more pertinently, 8 bulk. Does the horse treat 8 bulk as 8 bulk, and therefore winds up with 16 when wearing heavy barding and carrying a medium rider? Or does he wind up counting an 8 bulk item as 8light bulk, and therefore the rider and barding only counts as 1 bulk, 6 light?
The former seems rather punitive, and not logical compared to carrying 160 longswords. The latter seems too lax and even less logical-- a horse could carry 10 people on it. I suspect the former is the case, and the obvious solution to me is lower the bulk on heavy barding a few notches. (Also, let's get some more specific guidance on the bulk of people and their equipment.)
Punitive and illogical though it may be, I agree it's probably supposed to be the former. For your aforementioned Str 18 Horse, he treats 4 Bulk items as 4 Bulk each, 2 Bulk items as 2 Bulk each, and 1 Bulk items as Light (which then get ignored entirely unless they add up to an increment of 10).
To muddle the matter further, the Phantom Steed can carry your body weight plus 20 bulk. That's significantly more than an actual horse can carry based on my calculations but seems like it might be what the game actually expects-- 20 bulk plus a rider seems pretty decent for a pack animal. The way it uses the words "body weight" makes me think the rider's gear is counted against this 20 bulk limit though.
Disagree. The phrasing is "your body weight plus 20 Bulk". If we replace "your body weight" with "X", the phrasing becomes "X plus 20 Bulk", which to me doesn't seem like it's meant to be understood as "20 Bulk total".
So yeah, what say we all? Does my reasoning check out?
For the most part, solid reasoning (well, as solid as can be applied to a methodology like this). And I reiterate from the other thread, 5 pounds is 5 pounds, whether carried by a Halfling or a Human or a Horse or a Hill Giant. No need to go through each entry and vet it for what size creature it's meant for, or what size creature is carrying it, or whether it converts down/gets discounted as a fraction.
Just simple addition, the same as with hit points. Seriously, imagine just for a moment all the converting and vetting one must do for encumbrance and apply it to just one combat round (not even a whole encounter).
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Let's see, other screwy things about Bulk:
The Telekinetic Haul spell works on a target or not based on how much it weighs (up to 500 pounds) and if it has no dimensions longer than 20 feet. Okay, so say it's a crate with 8 Snare Kits. That's 64 Bulk (plus the crate itself), somewhere between 320 pounds and 640 pounds. Can I lift it with the spell or not?
Also, how much Bulk does it take to overwhelm an Immovable Rod? We're looking for 8,000 pounds of pressure, so somewhere between 800 and 1,600 Bulk. Or as a visual aid, between 50 and 100 grand pianos (well, heavy musical instruments, but one would think a grand piano a reasonable such example). Or merely a DC 30 Athletics check.
...
And that right there is my biggest concern. As you go up in levels, you're supposed to get noticeably better at things you were doing previously (exemplified by how you get better and better at providing the Athletics equivalent of dozens of grand pianos). And it works with skill checks (at least, as long as the Table 10-2 is applied correctly, for whatever definition of that word you like), but with Bulk, that barely happens. Your Str mod only makes so much of a dent (and as you pass 18, it counts for less anyway), you can only take Hefty Hauler once, and "just get a pack mule/Bag of Holding/Lydia-Sworn-To-Carry-My-Burdens" is only an acceptable solution as long as that behavior is regularly demonstrated in the fiction (it isn't).
From 3.5, 4E, 5E, P1E, Anima, Oblivion, Skyrim (never minding Lydia), and other games, there's a certain expectation for just how ridiculously Boy-Scout-prepared we're allowed to be before hitting the weight limits. Armor and main weapon and other main weapon and backup weapon and "street-legal" weapons (plural) and ranged weapon or weapons and enough ammo to, with proper policing of arrows, go through multiple dungeons and shield (and in P2E, backup shield and repair kit), and clothes and multiple equipment kits (thieves', climbing, disguise, etc) and rations and rope and more rope and you-don't have-enough-rope rope. All of that before we get into personalized accent items (Valeros's mug, Harsk's tea pot, things that exist only to suggest a backstory to your character). And all of that before we even get to the looting (and I'm not even talking about encountering 20 Orcs and looting 20 greataxes, either).
I mean, will adventures need to begin with the Wizard scrying to determine, not just how much loot a dungeon might have, but whether it's light enough to be carried out?
I've taken characters from those other games (even ones that are my light weight characters in terms of gear), converted their equipment lists into P2E terms, and they can't even move. It's especially odd when you consider that P1E rewarded specializing in a single weapon (Weapon Focus, enhancements only applying to one item). P2E, on the other hand, lets you swap out potency and property runes and keeps your proficiency pretty much the same (at least across all the weapons you can use). Yet, for all P1E didn't give you an incentive to use multiple weapons, it at least let you carry them. And I dearly want to apply the golf-bag approach that P2E allows (for example, using a longbow at range and switching to a shortbow when Volley might become an issue), but the logistics just don't allow it.
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Nevertheless, while I joked in another thread that Wayne Reynolds needed to go back and redo all the art for the Iconics to account for how conservative they need to be regarding their choice of carried gear, apparently he really does need to redo all the art. Valeros is supposed to be little more than an emaciated skeleton, rather than healthy and muscled, I guess.
Valeros has never been described as an emaciated skeleton (or anything similar) in any of the art descriptions I received.
Valeros has always been designed to be a fairly slim body shape. However, his physique hasn't changed in my rendition for Pathfinder 2.
As part of the new artwork for Pathfinder 2, some of the Iconic characters have been altered to accommodate the revised rules. A few weapon configurations have changed and specific items have been altered to reflect cultural design features. However, the amount of equipment they carry has remained the same.
(I'll be posting design notes about the Iconics at some point next year. I'll also be addressing the misconceptions regarding their equipment too)
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Oh, I agree he shouldn't be. None of them, really. But what else would you call a 40- to 80-lb fully adult human male?
And I agree that the amount of equipment they can carry should stay the same. But with how little Bulk you can play around with and how humongous swaths of that precious resource can get swallowed up by just a few equipment selections (a problem I never had in previous iterations), I just don't have faith that the world being advertised can logistically function.
Because I've always loved your art and the detail you put into what theyhad. It made them seem even more like people that would be living in such a world. I want emulating that to be possible in this game the way it is in others.
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I think the first flaw is assuming an +4 STR mod (18 STR) for a horse.
There's a reason we measure power in units of "horsepower". Horses are powerful.
Forgetting dragging, which horses are especially good at, and only looking at carrying, a quick Google search says that a 1,200# horse can comfortably carry approximately 20% of its body weight (240 pounds). A similar google search says a 200# human can carry a backpack of approximately 20% of his body weight (40 pounds). We're talking about walking around all day with these loads without injury or undue exhaustion.
That means a horse can comfortably carry 6x what a human can, in the real world.
No reason for Golarion to be any different.
An average human with 10 STR can carry 5 bulk. That means an average horse with an average STR should carry 30 bulk. Allowing for the x2 modifier for being large, that equates to 15 bulk which would require a 30 STR: base of 5 bulk + 10 for STR modifier then doubled for being large.
Stronger people (e.g. athletes) can carry more bulk. Stronger horses (e.g. Clydesdales) can carry more.
Maybe some of this is subsumed in the "treat 1 bulk items as light" rule for large creatures, but that math gets real fuzzy real fast; it's hard to calculate for it.
In any case, limiting a horse to 18 bulk seems much too low a value given what real world horses can carry.
Also, as the OP pointed out, the Phantom Steed seems able to carry 28 bulk which comes out really close to what my (albeit kludgey) math derived - maybe the Phantom Steed is slightly scrawny compared to flesh and blood horses...
Stronger people (e.g. athletes) can carry more bulk. Stronger horses (e.g. Clydesdales) can carry more.
Clydesdales aren't horses. They're woolly mammoths.
I think the first flaw is assuming an +4 STR mod (18 STR) for a horse.
There's a reason we measure power in units of "horsepower". Horses are powerful.
Forgetting dragging, which horses are especially good at, and only looking at carrying, a quick Google search says that a 1,200# horse can comfortably carry approximately 20% of its body weight (240 pounds). A similar google search says a 200# human can carry a backpack of approximately 20% of his body weight (40 pounds). We're talking about walking around all day with these loads without injury or undue exhaustion.
That means a horse can comfortably carry 6x what a human can, in the real world.
No reason for Golarion to be any different.
An average human with 10 STR can carry 5 bulk. That means an average horse with an average STR should carry 30 bulk. Allowing for the x2 modifier for being large, that equates to 15 bulk which would require a 30 STR: base of 5 bulk + 10 for STR modifier then doubled for being large.
Stronger people (e.g. athletes) can carry more bulk. Stronger horses (e.g. Clydesdales) can carry more.
Maybe some of this is subsumed in the "treat 1 bulk items as light" rule for large creatures, but that math gets real fuzzy real fast; it's hard to calculate for it.
In any case, limiting a horse to 18 bulk seems much too low a value given what real world horses can carry.
Also, as the OP pointed out, the Phantom Steed seems able to carry 28 bulk which comes out really close to what my (albeit kludgey) math derived - maybe the Phantom Steed is slightly scrawny compared to flesh and blood horses...
I believe it would actually work out to Str 20 for Joe Random average unexceptional horse.
5 base bulk + 5 for Str modifier (Str 20) = 10
10 x 2 for Large = 20
20 x 1.5 for Quadruped = 30
:)
You typically add multipliers in Pathfinder rather than compound them. So that should be a multiplier of ×2½ for a Large Quadruped. Which would give a value of 25 for a large quadruped with a 20 str, or 30 for large quadruped with 24 str (5+7)×(2½).