Dogfax |
Good day folks..
I am in the need for a flexible character that can do a bit of everything starting at level 3, as the party I am joining only really has one classical front line melee fighter, doesn't really have a healer, or a full caster.
So I have decided to play a Speaker for the Past, taking the Lore spirit.
I was looking to dip into arcane spells using the Arcane enlightenment hex, and also grabbing a few Cleric spells from the favoured class perk.
After having a read up a bit, I then decided to take one level of Karmic Monk. the thinking was that this allows me a bit more melee, bonus to AC (although lose the armour use), and two attacks per round at full BAB when I need to be in close combat. Also then possible using Hex strike to add these debuffs when I can.
I then maybe over though this and thought of maybe taking one level of Shadow Walker (rogue) too. Thinking the sneak D6, and weapon finesse, plus Dark vision would also compliment.
Further on I would take Shaman levels (Speaker for the Past) only to get revelations/hexes/spells.
I understand this is probably a poor decision as although it will make a powerful low lev character I am hurting my shaman progression by two levels, but since the party is made up of hybrids/multiclasses would this be such as bad thing?
If anyone has any major reasons why this is a no-no, or suggestion for feats/spells then that would be great.
Also has anyone else played a lev 3 character using 3 diff classes?
TheVillageIdiot |
I do dips all the time. I've had some ugly looking character sheets where I had 6 different classes at play, in fact. But those are usually martial characters trying to make some gimmick work.
Losing two caster levels sucks, but it's bearable if the payoff is big enough. But you're not just losing out on spellcasting abilities here. You're losing out on BAB - two points of it, in fact. And Flurry of Blows reduces your to-hit further with just a 1 level dip because it's basically Two-Weapon Fighting, and your weapon selection becomes limited. The sneak d6 also doesn't help if you're not flanking the enemy or attacking an enemy that's lost their DEX bonus.
Plus, if you want Darkvision, why not take a race with Darkvision? Dwarf has +2 WIS and +2 CON, not to mention awesome racials.
In general, make sure to consider everything you lose when multiclassing. BAB, differences in Saving Throws, spell progression, class ability progression... Ask yourself if the trade you're making is worth it. And if you need to limit your options when taking a class, consider what you could do without utilizing that option.
OmniMage |
The worst problem I see is that you have a BAB of +0 at 3rd level. At that point, the party wizard should have a BAB of +1 and the other non-martials should have a BAB of +2.
Depends on which rules you use. If you count wizards giving 1/2 of an attack bonus per level, and clerics giving 3/4, then any 3rd level character is going to have an attack bonus of at least 1.
Edit: If you are wondering, for saves its either 1/3 per level, or 2 + 1/2 level. You only count the 2 once, so no really high saving throws because you picked several classes with good saving throws.
Dave Justus |
Obviously Party makeup can change the equations. The most fun games are usually when the party is of similar levels of ability, so building less optimum can be a good choice at times.
That being said, I think you are giving up a lot for nothing with these other classes. The most powerful feature of any 9-level casting class is certainly the spells. Your best spell will always be a full level lower than it would be otherwise and you will have less spells per day as well. This is a serious loss of ability.
In exchange you get from the Monk a better attack (which will seldom matter since you are primarily a caster) probably no bonus at all to AC unless you have a phenomenal WIS and flurry, which can be nice but unless you are melee focused with both stats and equipment, it probably won't really do much in practice after a bit. Since later you are thinking about weapon finesse, you probably don't have enough STR to make melee useful at all.
For the Rogue you get sneak attack which you will hardly ever be using a feat that you will hardly ever be using, and unless you get DEX-to-Damage as well wouldn't be effective even if you did use it and Dark Vision, which magic and hexes could replace or simply be bought later. And of course unless everyone else in the party has darkvision, you still need a light source anyway and luckily you have a cantrip for that.
You have spells, hexes and revelations, most of which are going to be standard actions to activate and are almost certainly going to be more powerful than any attack you could make (even more so if you don't gimp yourself with 2 levels of useless dips.)
I will note that it certainly is possible to build a 'battle shaman' that focuses on melee but you would probably not be trying for a finesse build with that and it would still be better to just take Shaman levels for spells and abilities that make you an effective melee combatant.
Anyway, that is my analysis on how effective this build would be. Hopefully that will help you with style that you want and the level of effectiveness you want to be. As I said, being less effective than possible isn't always a bad choice, but you should know what the options are.
Dogfax |
ok thanks for the info... would be playing the unchained varieties if that makes a diff, so I have the option of flurry of blows at +1/+1, BAB+1. Also the Rogue get weapon finesse which will help to hit rolls as well.
Have to stick as Human for race, so no Dwarf for me, I am afraid.
Also longer term I hoped to be able to sneak/spectral hand after stealth... also helped with a lev in Rogue.
But you are probably right, I am over complicating here...
Grandlounge |
A few things:
-If dipping monk Unchained flurry is much better
-Arcane enlightenment hex - is best as a wandering hex but you are giving up the class feature.
-By taking AE you now require STR/DEX/CON for melee and INT/WIS/CHA for casting. This will crush any chance of having a stat array that supports what you want to do.
-Casting two levels behind will weaken the build. A one level dip makes you a prepared caster on the sorcerer track it's not bad at all.
Suggestions:
- Narrow the build slightly. Drop the arcane enlightenment and take the battle spirit. This will get you bane and weapon spec.
- Go dex is strictly worse for damage but it will allow you higher starting wisdom, which you need to make casting and offensive hexes viable.
- Damage will come from frostbite, divine favour (FCB), weapon spec, agile amulet of mighty fists, bane.
- Take hex strike to patch action economy.
- Consider rime and enforces to double down on debuffs to make your hexes stick.
- Use spirit armor, barkskin, wis and dex for crazy ac
Alternately:
Drop the melee idea and focus on casting and spell access combined with hexes.
Decimus Drake |
What's your statline and party class composition like?
I think Pathfinder as a system rewards some level of specialisation and typically you never want to give up caster levels unless you're working towards some specific build or PrC. I really don't think what you gain from the monk level is worth the loss of shaman progression, you can already wear medium armour which should outpace your wis to ac from the monk level. I mean basic chainmail is +6 to ac which would be equivalent to having a wis score of 22. If ac is a major issue then take the heavy armour proficiency feat. For melee damage you've got Power Attack if you've got the strength for it or Piranha Strike for a light-weapon finesse build.
Personally I don't think the rogue level is worth it as you have other ways to boost your hit chance/lower enemy ac so waiting a little longer for Weapon Finesse isn't really a problem, the 1d6 (average of 3) damage will quickly become insignificant and there are other ways to get Darkvision and sneak attack. Since you plan to take Arcane Enlightenment you can use it to get the 2nd level spell Sense Vitals which will give you a scaling sneak attack for 1 round/level (Darkvision is also a 2nd level wizard spell). If you wanted darkvision on a more permanent basis then the half-orc is a good option, you also gain proficiency with greataxes and falchions, and ferocity can be a lifesaver though if you don't like these options there's some strong alternative racial traits such as sacred tattoo.
So ultimately in my honest option spreading yourself out over so many different classes as you suggest is a bad idea. As a full shaman you've got healing and full caster covered and that more than enough of a contribution on your part. If you want to help with melee then just summon some animals and beef up your ac/hit/damage with feats/spells/hexes/armour/weapons, if you want sneak attack use the Sense Vitals spell and if yuo want Darkvision use the spell, get an item of be a half-orc.
Regarding feat suggestions I do strongly recommend the Ritual Hex feat. If you have this feat I would also suggest you do not take the Witch Hex shaman hex. The reason I say this is because you can only take a hex once thus if you were to take Witch Hex to select a hex from the witch's list then you are stuck with that one hex. However, if you leave the Witch Hex and instead select it when using Ritual Hex to can swap out your witch hex each day.
Dogfax |
maybe go to Rake for the Rogue dip....intimidate enemies/hex strike/evil eye??
I love Pathfinder for all the options... but I also hate Pathfinder for all the options lol!
We are also restricted to the 15pt build....:-(
The only thing I would say for my build id that alot of the actions that are covered by spells etc, will take a turn to cast.... using the Dips it means they will be in one round.... just one small vote for the Shamogue.....
LordKailas |
If you aren't trying to play a caster then multi-class to your heart's content. If you are trying to play a character who is a caster then you'll want to avoid more then one dip into a non-prestige class. Even a single dip can be painful so you had better be getting something nice for it.
The problem is, as a spell caster you need access to the highest level spells asap. This is partially because as a spellcaster, part of your job is to deal with enemy spell casters. If the BBEG is throwing around 5th level spells you don't want your highest level spell to only be 3rd level. Even if you're not using your spells to actively counterspell your opponent, many spell effects can be countered only with spells of equal or higher level to themselves (like wall of force). This is why mystic theurge is such a tragedy of a class. Yes you get all the arcane and divine spells you could ever want, but at 3 levels behind in both. This puts you a full 2 spell levels behind any other caster you run into.
It's less of an issue if you are playing a character who does something other than cast spells, but the thing they do is augmented by magic like an arcane archer.
Dogfax |
Had a bad experience playing a bard.... cant face returning there, but that is my issue not yours, so thanks for the suggestion :-). Also we have been told upfront that magic items/wands etc will be rare/restricted, so I will need access regardless of equipment to some sort of healing.
I will say that our game does need a lot of reliance on skills also, which is another plus to the rogue dip, but a weak one I will admit.
I want my character to be a caster, but not JUST a caster... if that makes sense. My characters history involves alot of subterfuge/stealth/sneakery..so the Dips also feel thematically ok if not good for gaming purposes.
To be fair our DM although strict (15pt/few magic items etc) is good enough that if a character starts to suck, then we can respec, so if I do got for it and end up rubbish, then I may be able to rebuild later.... perhaps.
Grandlounge |
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The rouge dip is not a real fix for skills you will get some class skill and a few extra skill points, but that is one time. As the DCs scale you will still only be effective in the skill you have ranks in every level. I would not even consider it a small factor.
It's seems like you want rouge for backstory reasons that's fine, but you can invest in stealth, grab spells like shield of darkness, mind control spells, Insect Scouts, scrying, darkness, silence etc. and build the theme from the class you are playing.
For this game, it really feels like you should be playing a default shaman. That way if you need to heal you channel the life spirit want spells channel for good spirit spells. Need to spy use your figment familiar with a +8 racial bonus to stealth.
If not that consider a spirit guide oracle. IT has some nice shaman stuff
OmniMage |
I felt the need to address fractional bonuses again. Can't edit my previous post now.
Nearly every class follows this pattern (I don't know if there are any classes that don't).
Attack bonuses:
Good +1 per level
Average +3/4 per level
Poor +1/2 per level
Saving throws:
Good 2 + 1/2 per level
Poor 0 + 1/3 per level
So a 16 level wizard would have an attack bonus of 8, fort of 5, refl 5, and will 10. Another example, a 13th level character, wizard 6 / cleric 7 would have an attack bonus of 8 (3 +5.25 rounded down), fort 7 (2 + 5.5), refl (4.33), and a will save of 8 (8.5)
BadBird |
If you really want Rogue and Sneak Attack, go Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle with one Rogue, Ninja or Snakebite Striker Brawler level so that you can specialize in Dazzling Blade.
Shaman with a high enough INT to use Lore Spirit arcane spells already has quite a few skill points. But the Lore Spirit's INT requirements make it a very questionable choice for a 15-point character who already wants STR/WIS.
If you want a high-skills hybrid character, I'd consider some kind of INT caster with Eldritch Knight.
Dogfax |
ok so I think I am going to risk this build and see if it plays well. Happy for it not to be spectacular, but it has a great history/backstory and the split fits well with that. It also gives me options in all scenarios, even if they may end up not being very powerful. As Dave Justus said... you dont have to be powerful to be fun.. well that is sort of what he said and I tend to agree, especially looking at our party make up.
So I have BAB+1 to start with and with the weapon finesse gives me +3/+4 when hitting with my unarmed/Sanpkhangs.
I am also going dabble down the Poison route and my DM has been generous and given me a Magic Sanpkhang that adds another +1 to poison DC, and another +1 for every 4 levels..... Keeps poisons in play, even if I will never be a master in them.
I also have gained an Imp that has a natural poison attack so thinking she can be milked (sounds wrong!) for more poison for us both to use, only issue is the magic Sanpkhang has a 10% chance to inflict the poison on me! hmmm... What a DM gives with one hand he takes away with the other..
For combat will usually start with a Monstrous Insight, as will also have Karmic Strike in affect...so if I get attacked first already I am looking at +4 to hit.
This coupled with hex strike, Evil Eye, gives me a potential free Hex/debuff per creature.
For attacks I can use my unarmed strikes even with a Sanpkhang loaded with poison, which gives me a choice on when to use it, with the poison DCs at 14-16 currently. Crafting and purchasing other poisons will be possible if not easy according to the DM, which is good.
I also have sneak attack with Bravados Blade, to give me the option of a free demoralize check...again not brilliant but another option to debuff and maybe later combine with spells to up this from shaken to panicked etc..
As for traits I have Magical Knack to up my caster level to 3, and Guiding Spirit to give me a 2X roll once per day.
I took deflect arrows as my Monk feat.
Further on I should only be taking Speaker of the Past levels to get hexes/revelations and will look to take Arcane Enlightenment to get mirror image/mage armour/shield to protect myself.
Thanks for all the suggestions and I did read into them all and I did get some good points from these. After my last character who was a 2 handed fighter/obliterator/one trick pony, I kinda want to play a more subtle (or you may say useless/weak) role.
PCScipio |
If It was me, I'd make a single classed Speaker for the Past Shaman with high strength, and use a longspear. As noted, arcane enlightenment is really too MAD for a melee Shaman. The Battle spirit would be reasonable choice. Another possibility is Flame Spirit for the Cinder Dance hex, Heavy Armour Proficiency at 3rd, and wear full plate.
The Speaker for the Past archetype has some duplication with the Lore Spirit in any case: the archetype gives you access to Heroism, Haste, Slow, Blur, Blink and almost-Dimension Door.
Cevah |
I am in the need for a flexible character that can do a bit of everything starting at level 3, as the party I am joining only really has one classical front line melee fighter, doesn't really have a healer, or a full caster.
Check out the Cleric (Evangelist):
Front line? Clerics do well here, but you only have light armor. Go for a mithril breastplate. [Or better, celestial breastplate.]Healer? Cleric here. Less channels, and no spon cure, but open slots can help a lot.
Full Caster? Cleric is a 9-level caster.
Bonus: You get bardic inspiration to buff everyone.
A single level dip into a martial can net medium and perhaps heavy armor.
This cleric is not primary damage, but quite good at acceptable damage. With the inspiration, everyone's damage goes up.
/cevah