Everyone that's not an operative wants at least long arm proficiency if not heavy weapons proficiency. Small arms are balanced around an operative using them, which means that everyone else has a weapon that's nearly ineffective.
Armor is almost useless except to store upgrade slots or to keep you from getting grabbed. If you tank, you use the damage reduction feat as your main source of mitigation.
No one needs to be a dedicated hit point or staminia point healer. Buy a six pack of mk 1 healing potions for the rare occasions you're taking HP damage.
Casters are going to need to pew pew laser their way through the low level fights. Spells are for special occasions, you don't get that many.
You're not out of the fight at zero hit points. You've just started tanking.
Conditions (diseases, poisons) start your character on a neigh unstopable death spiral. As soon as you can afford them chip in for medicinals/remove condition potions.
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Armor being useless is an overstatement. NPCs do have very high attack bonuses, and you will take a lot of hits, even with good armor, but stating that the armor class makes no difference exaggerates that truth into a falsehood. It is true that you shouldn't ever think that good armor will mean nothing hits you, but having no armor will start meaning that everything hits you with both attacks, even while you're prone behind cover.
Also, while you can absolutely burn resolve to get back into the fight from 0hp, and it can get silly, be aware that doing this against high damage opponents at low level is quite dangerous, due to the Massive Damage rule.
but stating that the armor class makes no difference exaggerates that truth into a falsehood.
Not cool on two fronts.
You don't accuse other posters of lying for honest opions
and you definitely don't strawman the nuance out of the statement and accuse someone of saying something they didn't.
There is almost no reason for the melee not to be using a reach weapon. They do a little bit less damage but they can attack at 0 distance now. One AOO will more than make up for the difference between a d8 and a d10 or whatever the weapon of your level is at.
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but stating that the armor class makes no difference exaggerates that truth into a falsehood.Not cool on two fronts.
You don't accuse other posters of lying for honest opions
and you definitely don't strawman the nuance out of the statement and accuse someone of saying something they didn't.
Despite the language used, I think it's clear both that he's suggesting your analysis (if any) is objectively wrong, and that you are in fact objectively wrong. He doesn't really think you're lying, just that you're confused or ignorant.
Armor provides improved AC, a marginal point of AC is worth 5% fewer hits, and fewer hits are worth something. Against a multi-attacking CR 12 Haeshi-Shaa, for example, a point of AC is worth .05x3x(3d5+20)=4.725 damage. Almost the equal of DR 5/-. Of course, DR 5/- is only worth that if you always get hit - more AC also reduces the expected value of damage mitigation measures and makes them less necessary on that same margin, freeing up resource for other options.
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Never start 1st level with a 17 in an ability score.
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but stating that the armor class makes no difference exaggerates that truth into a falsehood.Not cool on two fronts.
You don't accuse other posters of lying for honest opions
and you definitely don't strawman the nuance out of the statement and accuse someone of saying something they didn't.
Despite the language used, I think it's clear both that he's suggesting your analysis (if any) is objectively wrong, and that you are in fact objectively wrong. He doesn't really think you're lying, just that you're confused or ignorant.
Armor provides improved AC, a marginal point of AC is worth 5% fewer hits, and fewer hits are worth something. Against a multi-attacking CR 12 Haeshi-Shaa, for example, a point of AC is worth .05x3x(3d5+20)=4.725 damage. Almost the equal of DR 5/-. Of course, DR 5/- is only worth that if you always get hit - more AC also reduces the expected value of damage mitigation measures and makes them less necessary on that same margin, freeing up resource for other options.
My post was intended to say that the statement about armor being almost useless becomes innaccurate, due to exagerration, even though it is definitely true that armor class doesn't provide as much protection as people generally expect, and that damage resistance is extremely important.
I did not mean to say that you are a liar, BNW. I do not believe that you are. I could and should have phrased that better and I do apologize for that.
Armor is certainly less effective when stacked than in Pathfinder, since you can't stack it as high. But it can be an effective part of a layered defensive build.
At 1st level, typical KAC is probably 14 (14 dex, second skin). Maxed KAC is 18 (18 dex Vesk solar armor Solarian). A CR 1 combatant NPC (i.e. a standard challenge for a group of 4 level 1s), has an expected high attack of +8.
This means such an enemy hits average AC 75% of the time, while only hitting the highest AC 60% of the time. 1/0.6 = 1.67. 1/0.75 = 1.33. Ratio between the two is 1.25.
So going all out on AC is like having 25% more hit points. You won't always be facing a CR 1 combatant, so this will be higher and lower. How much that is worth to the overall character is a judgement call.
Compared to DR 1 at 1st (which I'm not sure how to get at 1st), and typical damage of 1d6+1, DR provides a ratio of 4.5/3.5 = 1.29.
Both is obviously better. 1.29*1.25 = 1.62, or more than 50% effective hit points.
Keep in mind nearly every enemy is ranged. Everyone on the team is going to get shot at some point. If the GM is playing enemies smart, they'll shoot the easiest to hit member of the team.
I agree dedicated healers aren't necessary. I second buying a crate of mk 1 healing potions.
Typically optimal time between upgrades is every 3 levels or so. You won't be able to afford upgrading your armor and weapons every level.
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Don't buy anything you can scavange.
Because you sell equipment at 10% , selling goods to buy stuff HURTS your WBL.
Unless you're built around a weird weapon (like the bow), don't buy weapons and armor. Loot them. off of bodies. That were totally like that when I got here officer. Same with armor. Save your cash for Fusions you like but enemies don't have, cybernetics, and stat upgrades.
Fusions are amazing. You can enchant your weapons from level 1. Fusion seals serve no function. Don't bother with them
I know why fusion seals serve no function, but others may not. Would you please elaborate on that point BNW?
TLDR: a fusion seal is supposed to be a permanent and swapable long term investment. It is temporary and less swapable than an allegedly permanent enchant.
A [fusion] is supposed to be a permanent enchantment
A [fusion seal] is supposed to be a hot swappable. But is less mobile than an enchantment.
Your typical fusion needs to go on a weapon with an item level equal to or greater than. So your level 1 starknife can handle a returning enchant (level 1 enchant) just fine, but isn't advanced enough that you can put ghost killer on it (level 5 enchant)
A fusion seal can be purchased at 10% over the fusion for the highest cost that the fusion seal will affect. So if you buy a level 1 throwing fusion (enchant level 1) It can move from any level 1 weapon to any level 1 weapon as fast as you can swap out a USB stick. Okay.. not too bad.
But it takes 24 hours to start working. So when do you have 24 hours notice that you'll need a ghost killer gun rather than a ghost killer pike?
And you can't upgrade it to a level 4 fusion seal. So as soon as you upgrade from the level 1 starknife to the level 4 starfknife is now an expensive paperweight. If you find a level 4 pike in a dungeon you can't put your level 1 fusion seal on it.
A fusion on the other hand , for half the price of a new fusion you can transfer it to a new weapon in 10 minutes of work as long as you or any of your party members have 1 rank in mysticism. (so, any second level party) So you get to save half the cost of your new enchant. This can save you so much money that its usually worth it to enchant a level 1 weapon JUST to save half price throwing it on a level 4 weapon.
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I'm curious to know if you use that exploit during character creation, only after the game has started, or at all.
This can save you so much money that its usually worth it to enchant a level 1 weapon JUST to save half price throwing it on a level 4 weapon.
Sure, but that only works with level 1 fusions. If you want to save money with a level 5 or level 10 fusion, you can't put it on a level 1 weapon to start. You'd have to start with a level 5 or level 10 weapon, respectively.
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General character/party building advice:
1) Have a plan for melee combat. If everyone in the party is trying to stand in the back, you have a problem. At low levels, melee damage with good Strength is significantly higher than guns.
2) Have a plan for ranged combat. Many enemies have ranged attacks and might not get close/keep flying. And if they're pure melee, you can ploink at them a few rounds before they get close. Note that thrown weapons use Strength to hit. Together with a called fusion, weapons like the Starknife give a melee character with more Strength than Dex a good ranged plan.
3) Cover all the skills. A well-rounded party can deal with more problems. Perception and Athletics are good skills for everyone to be trained in because they often can't be delegated to other people. ("Are YOU surprised? Are YOU able to climb/move in zero G?")
4) Traps. Nearly every Starfinder Society scenario contains a trap. They hurt a lot and are hard to spot. But the likely locations can be guessed. If you're about to burst into a "boss room" or very interesting location, Take 20 to search for traps. DCs for finding them start out above 20 at level 1. But actually disabling them is a lot easier than finding them in most cases. Note that you'll need both Engineering and Mysticism to have a shot at disabling every trap. But you don't need a specific class to try. Also the toolkit gives a +4 bonus which helps.
5) Starship combat. Divvy up the roles when making a party. You want to know your role during character creation to make sure you're competent at it. This is not easy for all classes so planning ahead is important.
Never start 1st level with a 17 in an ability score.
OK. Can someone explain this to me? I have seen this sentiment a couple of times on here.
Here is my analysis of 16 vs 17 vs 18 on an ability that you plan on bumping at every opportunity.
1st
16 :: 17 :: 18
The 17 is the same as a 16.
5th
18 :: 19 :: 19
The 17 is now the same as the 18, but neither provide more benefit than the 18 did originally.
10th
19 :: 20 :: 20
The 17 is still the same as the 18 and will continue to be so.
So from what I can see, the 17 is actually one of the best options for the odd ability score. If I do the same thing for 10 vs 11 vs 12, the 11 never catches up to the 12.
What am I missing?
Never start 1st level with a 17 in an ability score.OK. Can someone explain this to me? I have seen this sentiment a couple of times on here.
Here is my analysis of 16 vs 17 vs 18 on an ability that you plan on bumping at every opportunity.
1st
16 :: 17 :: 18The 17 is the same as a 16.
5th
18 :: 19 :: 19The 17 is now the same as the 18, but neither provide more benefit than the 18 did originally.
No, the 17 is now the same as the 16.
Every 5 levels, you get to increase and customize your character’s ability scores. Each time he reaches one of these level thresholds (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th—see Table 2–4), choose four of his ability scores to increase. If a chosen score is 17 or higher (excluding ability increases from personal upgrades—see page 212), it increases permanently by 1.
At 5th level both the 16 and the 17 are raised to 18.
Odd numbers are only useful for qualifying for feats, many of which require 15 if they have an ability prerequisite, or for an extra bulk limit if you put it in strength.
Never start 1st level with a 17 in an ability score.OK. Can someone explain this to me? I have seen this sentiment a couple of times on here.
Here is my analysis of 16 vs 17 vs 18 on an ability that you plan on bumping at every opportunity.
1st
16 :: 17 :: 18The 17 is the same as a 16.
5th
18 :: 19 :: 19
The 17 doesn't go to 19. The 17 goes to 18 , the same as a 16 would.
It doesn't matter THAT much, unless you're taking a feat and could use an odd stat somewhere to qualify for it
Starting with a 17 is effectively wasting 1 point of your 10-point buy since it, like a 16, goes up to an 18 at 5th-level anyways. Unless you're a human operative or soldier trying to qualify for Improved Sidestep, or are trying to increase your carrying capacity slightly, it literally does nothing for you. Might as well put that point somewhere else where it might actually help you.
Every 5 levels, you get to increase and customize your character’s ability scores. Each time he reaches one of these level thresholds (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th—see Table 2–4), choose four of his ability scores to increase. If a chosen score is 17 or higher (excluding ability increases from personal upgrades—see page 212), it increases permanently by 1.
OK. I seriously misread that as 'higher than 17'.
And I am immediately houseruling it back that way. Because seriously, a noticeable chunk of initial point buy and at least two ability boosts seems like sufficient cost to make that 1 point from theme actually meaningful.
EAC is generally 2 points lower than KAC.
If you deal a lot of damage from things besides the weapon (operatives sneak, uber strength score) you are usually better off doing alittle less damage on the weapon dice with whats effectively a +2 bonus to hit (since hit is MUCH harder to come by in this system)
Every 5 levels, you get to increase and customize your character’s ability scores. Each time he reaches one of these level thresholds (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th—see Table 2–4), choose four of his ability scores to increase. If a chosen score is 17 or higher (excluding ability increases from personal upgrades—see page 212), it increases permanently by 1.OK. I seriously misread that as 'higher than 17'.
And I am immediately houseruling it back that way. Because seriously, a noticeable chunk of initial point buy and at least two ability boosts seems like sufficient cost to make that 1 point from theme actually meaningful.
Alternately, run an 11 point buy instead of 10. Currently, the odd point only helps if you're taking ability damage.
It also helps with some feat prerequisites and with bulk limits.
Strength isn't important at chargen unless you're a melee or heavy weapons build.
Con isn't very important at chargen because the percentage increase in total HP/stamina from a +1 modifier is pretty small.
Cha is only important at chargen if you're building a face, and it's the one stat it's really hard to justify taking to 18 (or even 16) even if it's your primary stat.
Wis is somewhat more important at chargen than these others, but still not that much.
Int isn't important at chargen unless it's your primary stat. The party balance should provide enough skill coverage and expertise that you don't want to invest a lot into it.
Everyone should put 14-18 in Dex, the rest in their primary stat (unless it's Cha, then you can skimp some), and only raise three stats at chargen if you're a solarian or envoy who needs some dex, cha, and also wants some strength or something else if you're economizing on cha.
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But I feel that the stats might be spread a little thin, overall. On average, you will have about a 12 in your stats,
But the average isn't the reality. On average everyone has exactly the same stats because they very consistently give each race the same sum of modifiers and everyone gets the same build points. But nobody spends them as average as possible.
A group gets strong by diversifying; by everyone taking an important job and saying "I'll take care of that". And that involves making choices about abilities.
Strength - melee actually works very well in this game, and carrying capacity is a middling concern. But if you're not the designated melee person there's no reason to go above 10-12 (12 is required for some heavy equipment).
Dexterity - in the future it's even more important than in the past. Ranged to-hit, initiative, reflex, AC. In my experience the only people who don't care that strongly are heavy-armor melee people who throw (using Strength for to-hit) rather than shoot things; and squishy casters that don't even use ranged weapons. The second group is really small because picking up a gun is a GREAT idea for a caster who wants to measure out the use of his spells.
Constitution - because of a death/dying system and the relative contribution towards (HP + STA) being about half of what it contributes to HP in Pathfinder, Constitution isn't quite as "must-have". A 10 is not a death sentence and a 12 is not crazy for a melee character. But Fortitude saves tend to be against scary things.
Intelligence - depending on the party size and the number of operatives, you may not need this. But if your party doesn't do operatives, it helps a lot on everyone contributing. Ideally, each PC doesn't dump INT and specializes in skills related to their strong abilities.
Wisdom - Perception, Will Saves, Sense Motive. Also, Survival is actually quite useful.
Charisma - for most people, leaving it at 10 is sufficient. That makes you normal, well-adjusted but not amazing.
and it seems all stats are fairly important to all characters: Strength for bulk and melee, Dex because Dex, Con for hp/stamina/Fortitude, Int for skills (both because lots of things are based on it, and because it gives you more), Wis for Perception and Will, and Charisma because who wants to be an unwashed lout? I guess what I'm wondering is, is it worth specializing heavily at character creation? A broader spread seems more efficient in the long run (since the boosts you get every 5 levels hit diminishing returns at 17), but do the advantages of say Dex 18 right now outweigh those considerations?
Why are so many people talking about CON boosting hp and stamina? CON doesn't increase hp, only stamina.
No oneis saying it boosts HP. But the relevant metric is how much it boosts the sum of HP and stamina; not much.
Ah, that makes more sense. I was reading things like "Con for hp/stamina/Fortitude" as "con for hp, stamina and fortitude" rather than "con for (combined pool of hp/stamina) and fortitude."
Some games will definitely have less poison and disease, but there are a lot of low level things that can call for a fort save. Even the lowly smoke grenade can be pretty debilitating if you're attacked in an environment that you wouldn't be walking around with sealed suits in.
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That's actually one of the reasons I got me a black heart necrograft the second I landed on Eox.
It really is the best.
I say don't forget the starting gear for your character. Don't forget basic things like a personal comm unit or a hygiene kit to be able to take care of personal hygiene like clipping nails, brushing teeth and so on the character needs to go and pay for those things and has a problem when not being able to visit a barber or whatever suits the needs of that character to not be scruffy.
I assume one armour, one weapon and stuff like kits for disabling traps if that characters wants to do that and clothes is a no-brainer.
Every character should be able to fill a different role for starship combat or the party as a whole should be able to fill at least the most important roles.
Keep in mind you don't only have magic but also technology and lots of different species and cultures.
If you want to explore new worlds the characters have to be self-sufficient or hire expensive experts to be able to survive the untouched or nearly untouched jungle on planet 754834.
Radiation is a thing in Starfinder! So let one person check for it and be prepared to treat people being exposed to radiation.
Keep in mind for later.
Characters are not limited to natural ability scrores and increases, they can use augmentations!
Dib into cyberpunk genre and get yourself cool stuff like a biotech augmentation to breath acid like a tiny dragon or classic cybernetic arms.
For a basic skim of the classes, rules, and whatnot of Starfinder, one of my favorite resources is the YouTube channel 20 Sided Knight. Their 'Class At A Glance' playlist is pretty good especially for players new to Starfinder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbXYX47Qj4&list=PLH7O7aDjYo4deT5tpj-QT dhMV5xXDC5X0