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I find that due to channel energy being so strong that clerics get pigeon held into healing in circumstances. So I went here to the forums to see if I could find any threads and see if I missed something. Short story, I did but I still feel a change is needed.
I found that out of the four classes that can heal, clerics were fully capable healers and druids and sorcerers were made to have other possible roles with healing (damage for druid and sorcerers are just general spell casters) and at the bottom of the casters is bard when it comes to healing, but they're meant to support and buff.
This lead me to wonder if they were equitable instead of equal. So I thought about it for awhile and came to the conclusion that yes, it is for druid. For bards it's not in most circumstances and sorcerers just get a bum rap.
Thus far I only came up with a fix for bards, and I will test it out soon, but for sorcerers I just don't know.
Those wondering, the fix for bards is to add a small scaling temporary hit points on inspire courage. Probably being 1d4 and the usual scaling for cantrips (3rd adds spell modifier and each appropriate level after that increases base) making bards better in marathon scenarios and still keep the flavor while leaving clerics as the best in most scenarios (as I feel that is the intent for clerics).
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Ooh, I do like that Inspire courage idea. Maybe add in functionality to give the THP a boost when you use Inspire Heroics?
Though is this THP supposed to just last for the round you have the cantrip active, and does it renew every use? I'm not sure if every-round renewable THP on the party for 1 action (That also does other nice things) would work out too well, just seems really strong to me. Maybe have it last for a minute but once you get the THP you can't get it again for x amount of time? IDK, an easy damage barrier that can be thrown up every round seems a bit much to me, even if it is a relatively small one. It's still tantamount to reflecting approximately 1/2 hit at least per party member per round.
By bum rap are you saying Sorcerers suck or most people say Sorcerers suck but they don't? (The latter has been my personal experience so far)
Edge93 wrote: Ooh, I do like that Inspire courage idea. Maybe add in functionality to give the THP a boost when you use Inspire Heroics?
Though is this THP supposed to just last for the round you have the cantrip active, and does it renew every use? I'm not sure if every-round renewable THP on the party for 1 action (That also does other nice things) would work out too well, just seems really strong to me. Maybe have it last for a minute but once you get the THP you can't get it again for x amount of time? IDK, an easy damage barrier that can be thrown up every round seems a bit much to me, even if it is a relatively small one. It's still tantamount to reflecting approximately 1/2 hit at least per party member per round.
By bum rap are you saying Sorcerers suck or most people say Sorcerers suck but they don't? (The latter has been my personal experience so far)
I'd say probably only one party member per round and until the start of your next turn.
As far as sorcerers, they just don't have everything on paper. Honestly, they're problem is their appeal, a lack of a specific niche.
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Cleric is only second best.
Channel Energy is the best healer in the game. Check the numbers.
It’s better than a Cleric, it’s better than a Sorcerer. It’s as strong as a class, if you admit that it can be a very narrow specialist class.
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Ediwir wrote: Cleric is only second best.
Channel Energy is the best healer in the game. Check the numbers.
It’s better than a Cleric, it’s better than a Sorcerer. It’s as strong as a class, if you admit that it can be a very narrow specialist class.
Honestly, yeah. It definitely skews the numbers, especially early on when everyone else just doesn't have more than a couple spells to do the job.
Played through one section with a divine sorcerer that multiclassed into cleric in the party. It was pretty interesting, the flexibility of the spontaneous sorcerer class with utility of the divine spell list, plus both the halo and wings feat, the ability they get to add a damage die to a weapon after casting a spell, using a great axe, and using that cleric feat to make the axe a holy symbol came together really well.
My personal opinion, the only real fault in the sorcerer class is they need to be able to spontaneously heighten any of their spells that they know to whichever level they need.
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thecutter0 wrote: I find that due to channel energy being so strong that clerics get pigeon held into healing in circumstances. So I went here to the forums to see if I could find any threads and see if I missed something. Short story, I did but I still feel a change is needed. There's a thread about Clerics and Channel specifically over here. And yes, it's a problem.
Quote: I found that out of the four classes that can heal, clerics were fully capable healers and druids and sorcerers were made to have other possible roles with healing (damage for druid and sorcerers are just general spell casters) and at the bottom of the casters is bard when it comes to healing, but they're meant to support and buff. Channel is a fully capable healer. Clerics are the otherwise weak cart that Channel uses to get around.
Conceptually, Channel is great. It lets you have access to healing without having to build specifically for it, so you can be "the healer" but also do other stuff. Remove that and what you get is Clerics that can only heal effectively if they go full healbot and lose most of their spell slots to Heal. That just isn't fun to play in comparison to a full on support caster who can heal, buff, disable, and even do offense (aka: the Cleric in 1e).
The problem is that it's so good relative to the rest of what Clerics have that it's lopsided and the class is effectively about Channel.
Quote: This lead me to wonder if they were equitable instead of equal. So I thought about it for awhile and came to the conclusion that yes, it is for druid. For bards it's not in most circumstances and sorcerers just get a bum rap. Yes, that is what you want. There's no reason to have lots of classes if they all work exactly the same way.
Quote: Those wondering, the fix for bards is to add a small scaling temporary hit points on inspire courage. Probably being 1d4 and the usual scaling for cantrips (3rd adds spell modifier and each appropriate level after that increases base) making bards better in marathon scenarios and still keep the flavor while leaving clerics as the best in most scenarios (as I feel that is the intent for clerics). I like it. Would be fun to try out.
I'm not sure I agree with the point of druid being anywhere close to equitable to cleric as the role of healer. At level 1 a leaf druid has 4 uses of goodberry and 2 heals for an average of 43 healing. If the druid does heal for 43 he is pretty useless otherwise.
A cleric with 14 cha gets 42,5 healing from channel energy, which leaves him to still use his spell points and spell slots for something else or he can heal even more, completely outperforming the druid.
In terms of proficiencies, skills etc. it's pretty close but I would give it to the cleric because they get one more skill and aren't limited to non-metal armor and shields.
As both of them level up their use as healer is again clearly favoring the cleric. Goodberries quickly becomes a waste of time to use in any combat situation, with the clerics channel energy will remain at the top of what healing can do in combat.
So yes channel energy is the best healer in the game bar none, which makes clerics the best hands down. Sorcerers getting paladin specialization is probably the second best healer.
Currently I think druids, sorcerers, bards gets good enough as a healer to be viable for a party, but they don't really compete in the support role with the cleric. I'm still pro nerfing channel energy to be 0+cha modifier instead of 3+cha, if that makes clerics too boring then I would look at increase the power levels of domains.
Nettah wrote: I'm not sure I agree with the point of druid being anywhere close to equitable to cleric as the role of healer. At level 1 a leaf druid has 4 uses of goodberry and 2 heals for an average of 43 healing. If the druid does heal for 43 he is pretty useless otherwise.
A cleric with 14 cha gets 42,5 healing from channel energy, which leaves him to still use his spell points and spell slots for something else or he can heal even more, completely outperforming the druid.
In terms of proficiencies, skills etc. it's pretty close but I would give it to the cleric because they get one more skill and aren't limited to non-metal armor and shields.
As both of them level up their use as healer is again clearly favoring the cleric. Goodberries quickly becomes a waste of time to use in any combat situation, with the clerics channel energy will remain at the top of what healing can do in combat.
Equitable just means that the deficiencies are made up for in some way. Druids are simply more offense heavy than clerics, making them equitable due to being able to do damage and have healing options.
thecutter0 said wrote: Equitable just means that the deficiencies are made up for in some way. Druids are simply more offense heavy than clerics, making them equitable due to being able to do damage and have healing options. But without spontaneous casting and a very limited amount of spell slots I don't find that true. Sure a storm druid can be much more offensively built than any clerics can (I think), but I don't really see the leaf druid having much offensive capabilities or at least more than a cleric. The cleric on the other hand could use his domain and spell slots for purely offensive use (not the best, but better than a druid forced to spend his on healing to even keep up with channel energy).
Druid does have a lot of cool elements going for it, but a support druid does seem to be strictly inferior to a cleric any day. (We might disagree on this)
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Strongly agree that Channel Energy is problematic in how good it is, and that it pidgeonholes clerics into being healers.
It's a little problematic for negative energy clerics, too, in that it gives them a shocking amount of offensive damage (compare the amount of spell damage a 1st level negative cleric can do to a blaster sorc of the same level, ignoring cantrips of course).
MaxAstro wrote: Strongly agree that Channel Energy is problematic in how good it is, and that it pidgeonholes clerics into being healers.
It doesn't really do that though. Having healing != being a healer.
If you take that away entirely, having healing now means devoting most of your spell slots to Heal. That is far, far worse because now you can't really do anything else.
They need to rebalance this so it isn't so lopsided (and so the rest of Cleric isn't so weak and utterly reliant on Channel), but having a pool of dedicated healing is a good thing to avoid pigeonholing people into the healbot role.
Tridus wrote: MaxAstro wrote: Strongly agree that Channel Energy is problematic in how good it is, and that it pidgeonholes clerics into being healers.
It doesn't really do that though. Having healing != being a healer.
If you take that away entirely, having healing now means devoting most of your spell slots to Heal. That is far, far worse because now you can't really do anything else.
They need to rebalance this so it isn't so lopsided (and so the rest of Cleric isn't so weak and utterly reliant on Channel), but having a pool of dedicated healing is a good thing to avoid pigeonholing people into the healbot role. I mean, if the action economy wasn't a thing, yeah. As is you will be expected to use your actions to heal if you have them.
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Tridus wrote: MaxAstro wrote: Strongly agree that Channel Energy is problematic in how good it is, and that it pidgeonholes clerics into being healers.
It doesn't really do that though. Having healing != being a healer. I agree with you (because all the other classes that have healing aren't healers)
Except...
Quote: They need to rebalance this so it isn't so lopsided (and so the rest of Cleric isn't so weak and utterly reliant on Channel), but having a pool of dedicated healing is a good thing to avoid pigeonholing people into the healbot role. That's the problem that pidgeonholes clerics into being healers.
(That is: you started off your post disagreeing, and then supported your argument by agreeing)
I weep that for healing/support the Alchemist isn't even listed as a class to fill that role in the whole thread. Just cleric/bard/ruid/sorc...
As for those that say that if Channel is gone then the cleric will need to spend his spell slots for it... Um... Isn't that the case for everyone else?
Why should cleric be special?
shroudb wrote: I weep that for healing/support the Alchemist isn't even listed as a class to fill that role in the whole thread. Just cleric/bard/ruid/sorc...
As for those that say that if Channel is gone then the cleric will need to spend his spell slots for it... Um... Isn't that the case for everyone else?
Why should cleric be special?
On the alchemist, I just haven't seen it in action and it's mechanics are changed regularly (being tied to crafting and magic items) for me to even try to break it down would be silly.
As far as them being special, I get that they are often called the healing class because people see them as being the premier healer. So I get the concept, even if I don't fully agree with it.
Honestly I feel like the best solution would be equity at this point. If clerics are going to be raw healing then every support should have something to give them a niche that works thematically.
Druids get offensive and summoning spells to reduce the number of turns damage is done, which fits their theme of being savage and violent as well as helpful; bards get inspiration effects, which fits their theme of bringing the potential out of their allies (even if they need a bit of a push here); sorcerers can cast spontaneously and from any spell list but don't get the same powers showing that their power may come from other sources it is not beholden to anything but the sorcerer.
Flavor wise, I'd say they're all strong, but they have had years of flavor to draw on. Mechanically, they feel like they need to be buffed.
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