| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Started this on the main thread for the resonance test update but since it is off topic of the test I am starting a new thread.
As is my group isn't going to be able to test all of Doomsday Dawn before the end of the year so there isn't a realistic chance of me playtesting the new resonance rules. So to that end I read the rules and have some opinions to share and a suggestion for a slightly simplified system.
First off I like the flat ten for resonance though that seems like a good change relative to PF 1.
Focus is fine in concept but as written it is too complicated. IMO The mechanic is not interesting enough to keep around if there are still x/day magic item abilities to keep track of.
Suggestion:
Make all activated items (not consumables) require focus to activate each time. Remove X/day limitations for using magic items. Keep focus as a super-charge for consumables.
Increase Focus accordingly by just making it the sum of two modifiers one of which is always Charisma.
Wizards Focus = Int mod + Cha Mod
Bard/Paladin/Sorcerer Focus = 2x Cha Mod
(As shroudb pointed out this might be too powerful. Personally I think it is okay since in the first draft Cha casters get both a spell point and a resonance point out of each Cha mod increase but if it is too powerful we could split of the classes in a different way
Sorcerer Con + Cha
Paladin Wis + Cha
Bard Int + Cha)
Monk/Druid/Cleric Focus = Wis mod + Cha mod
etc.
Martial Focus = Cha Mod (Maybe a general feat to add another ability modifier if you want to use a lot of activated items)
Multiclassers get to choose what the non-Cha modifier is based on their classes.
Still an intensive to boost Cha but you can make a non-charismatic wizard if you want and still have access to your class abilities.
Thoughts?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Related, I saw this:
This is one of the few cases in
which a creature that can’t act might be able to Activate an Item.
Only the creature consuming the elixir can spend Focus Points on
it, and only if it’s able to act.
The first sentence and the second sentence contradict each other.
Related, I saw this:
The first sentence and the second sentence contradict each other.This is one of the few cases in
which a creature that can’t act might be able to Activate an Item.
Only the creature consuming the elixir can spend Focus Points on
it, and only if it’s able to act.
Maybe that applies to the conscious but willing scenario? So an unconscious character can be fed an elixir but can't activate it. A paralyzed character is able to act in ways that only use the mind so maybe they could activate it as well?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless the intent is that they can only gain the BASE effect of the item and not the boosted effect (from spending Focus). It just seems really weird to have those two sentences worded like that right next to each other.
Additionally in this update, Necklace of Fireballs fixed one problem and created two new ones.
You can activate it only if it’s held in your hand.
ITS A NECKLACE. ON MY NECK.
After you activate a sphere, if you or anyone else
hurls it before the start of your next turn, it detonates
as a fireball (Playtest Rulebook 224) where it lands.
[...]
If you spend 1 Focus Point when you detach a sphere,
increase the fireball’s area to a 30-foot burst.
Uh, the rules on page 224 say that it's already a 30 foot burst...
Unless the intent is that they can only gain the BASE effect of the item and not the boosted effect (from spending Focus). It just seems really weird to have those two sentences worded like that right next to each other.
Additionally in this update, Necklace of Fireballs fixed one problem and created two new ones.
You can activate it only if it’s held in your hand.ITS A NECKLACE. ON MY NECK.
Uh, the rules on page 224 say that it's already a 30 foot burst...After you activate a sphere, if you or anyone else
hurls it before the start of your next turn, it detonates
as a fireball (Playtest Rulebook 224) where it lands.
[...]
If you spend 1 Focus Point when you detach a sphere,
increase the fireball’s area to a 30-foot burst.
The necklace thing is hilarious and they should clarify that it's one of the marbles you would need to hold.
Fireball actually says 20-foot burst.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What I'd like to see is a hybridization of the new Focus rules with the Spell Point rules, especially with respect with what happens when you mix two different Spell Point pools that are based on different stats: You simply use the better stat to determine the size of your pool.
It's simple, effective and there's precedent for it already in the design.
I would also prefer to keep the notion that each time you gain a new power, it adds to your pool. It just feels right.
EDIT: Well, actually, my highest-level preference is to keep them separate pools altogether, but if they must be condensed, this is how I'd rather it.
Fireball actually says 20-foot burst.
Thank you, I was mis-remembering and didn't go look it up. Silly of me.
10 feet of extra radius isn't going to be worth a focus, but it's better than alchemist's fire.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really dislike the idea of having to use any resource to use the magic contained in a magic item.
If I have to use FP to activate magic items, then it practically reduces them to a name change.
Plus, is it really that much of a hassle to put a check mark next to your magic items to keep track of a free use per day? At that point we might as well be asking to use consumables by directly spending money during combat so we don't have to keep track of an item list.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fireball actually says 20-foot burst.Thank you, I was mis-remembering and didn't go look it up. Silly of me.
10 feet of extra radius isn't going to be worth a focus, but it's better than alchemist's fire.
It might be better for, say, a Fighter who doesn't have a lot of things better to use Focus on. Built for niche moments where you have to consider whether or not hitting 4 more enemies is worth potentially super charging a potion one more time.
For a Sorcerer or a Paladin? Yeah, it's not worth it. They're much better served using Focus on their class powers, which got a huge buff (Fire Ray's highest level blast if the user can cast level 10 spells is now 19d6 plus 10d6 persistent on a crit, as compared to just 10d6 maxed before)
But then, why would the Sorcerer, who has their own blasts, use a Necklace of Fireballs?
I think people have this idea that Focus points need to be equally as useful for each class, but I don't think this is true. Nor should it be. It gives a use for Charisma for every class without it being needed. Do you want your Fighter/Rogue/Ranger to have high Focus? Totally legit builds now, as it allows them to get more use out of healing potions and activated magic items, but you can also totally forgo that for better physical stats, and you're not really missing out on all that much.
Meanwhile, classes with powerful class powers need it more and probably will be using activated items and supercharged potions less often. And classes like the Sorcerer, which is already built around Cha gets a buff over the more comprehensive Wizard by having both more uses of powers and still being able to down a super potion on occasion.
This is why I hesitate to jump in and support Bardarok's remake. Consider how powerful the new examples of powers are. 19d6 + a potential 10d6 persistent? Give an equivalent power to the Sorcerer and suddenly that is available 10-14 times per rest? Spells become even less useful. By a large amount.
The only class that seems really hurt by this is the Monk. Who is now even more MAD if they want to be Ki-focused. The Monk needs a buff if this is going to stick, but it can't be TOO powerful. If the Monk can just spend 10 minutes after battle to meditate and get all Focus back, that is way too much. Maybe Meditating could only restore you to a maximum of half your total Focus, rounded down? Then make Ki abilities really good, similar to Fire Ray, and make it so that even a Monk with only 2 Focus can be assured of one super-shot per combat (assuming he isn't ambushed before meditation is over).
Other than the extra bookkeeping, I really like this update. Making more possible builds for every class that are all viable is a good thing. Does balancing need finessing? Sure, but this is definitely a positive step.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
True my idea of boosting the number of points would mean the powers would need to be rebalanced back towards where they were before. My main point was on book-keeping and ease of play. Having 8 different versions of some ability for classes to get extra focus for class abilities seems overly complicated when there is a more obvious and intuitive solution.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But then, why would the Sorcerer, who has their own blasts, use a Necklace of Fireballs?
Because the item list is full of garbage?
Quick, find me a 7th level item (other than Ring of Wizardry) and a 6th level item that my arcane sorcerer would be more interested in than Necklace of Fireball.
And it can't be a Staff (or wand or consumable) because Staves use Focus, just like the necklace.
Having 8 different versions of some ability for classes to get extra focus for class abilities seems overly complicated when there is a more obvious and intuitive solution.
Could you elaborate on what you mean here?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having 8 different versions of some ability for classes to get extra focus for class abilities seems overly complicated when there is a more obvious and intuitive solution.Could you elaborate on what you mean here?
My concern comes from the blog:
"I want to address a couple concerns briefly. One is that classes that thematically should have a decent number of Focus Points will be left out if the pool is Charisma-based. We expect that these classes would have solid methods to adjust their number of points. For instance, a wizard might get some points each day from his arcane focus, or a ki-using monk might meditate to refresh some Focus Points. However, we'd be looking at these remaining Charisma-based, so a wizard who wants to increase Charisma gets a Focus Point benefit from it just like a fighter would."
So clearly 1 or 2 + Cha won't be enough points for powers and item activation. Which makes sense since before we had spellcasting mod for spell points and resonance - invested items for item activation so its good that they are going to try and address that but...
The blog suggests that in order to make characters with powers playable they will each have a unique mechanic to get extra focus. One of my two points is that that is an overly complicated way to go about it. Specifically to the question that was my mention of eight different ways for each class to add extra focus this is added complexity for minimal benefit.
Making focus pool equal to Cha mod plus spell casting mod is intuitive and still keeps Cha important if you want to maximize your focus.
My other point was that I don't like the extra book-keeping of items which have one free use then cost focus thereafter and I at least would prefer if they increased the focus pool size a bit and just made activated items cost one focus per use. Probably a lot of activated items that when activated let you use the power for a minute or something like that.
Does that make it more clear?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think I understand you shroudb. Rsonance and focus are completely separate now so there is no need to add extra focus to compensate for invested items.
I'm talking about the book keeping on items that have focus activation. My complaint is literally that I don't like the idea of 1/use per day and extra uses that cost resonance as a mechanic. I think it adds needless complexity and I only want complexity in the game when there is a benefit to it.
Okay that makes more sense, thank you for clarifying. That would have the advantage of being simple at least.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
staffs still give you a greatly expanded spontaneous casting spell list without Focus.
Only if:
a) I want those spellsand
b) Didn't already take them
They also give a 1/day free spell.
Core book gave you 2 per day, so...I should be glad they at least didn't take all of them away?
I see no reason you wouldn't want 1 for your wizard.
Wizard != Sorcerer
well, pick a staff with spells you want. What you're saying is equal to
Lets see, Staff of Fire gives me fireball. I like fireball.
I like it so much I chose fireball to be one of my known spells.
Soo...why Staff of Fire? If I get a different staff I know more variance in spells. Except I don't want any of those spells.
"why should i pick a necklace of fireballs if i don't like fireball?"
Because each sphere on the necklace is a fireball. Instead of 1/day I get 4 to use when I run out.
Yes its a consumable, but I can do a lot with 4 extra fireballs. I still hate that it's a consumable, but that's why there's nothing ELSE in these item slots.
you really have no need for 5-6-7 SPONTANEOUS spells for your WIZARD?
What wizard?
Core book gave charges, not spells.
Yes, however at the level we're talking (the lowest version that only offers level 1 spells) 1 charge = 1 spell.
A wizard gains the defacto sorcerer ability: spontaneous casting
a sorcer get a lot more spells "known".
Cool the wizard gets stuff. The sorcerer also gets...something.
Tell me again why my blaster sorcerer who already knows fireball wants a staff of fire (or for that matter, any of the other staves)?
Thanks for clarifying!
My concern comes from the blog:
"I want to address a couple concerns briefly. One is that classes that thematically should have a decent number of Focus Points will be left out if the pool is Charisma-based. We expect that these classes would have solid methods to adjust their number of points. For instance, a wizard might get some points each day from his arcane focus, or a ki-using monk might meditate to refresh some Focus Points. However, we'd be looking at these remaining Charisma-based, so a wizard who wants to increase Charisma gets a Focus Point benefit from it just like a fighter would."
So clearly 1 or 2 + Cha won't be enough points for powers and item activation. Which makes sense since before we had spellcasting mod for spell points and resonance - invested items for item activation so its good that they are going to try and address that but...
My interpretation of that part of the blog was to mean that:
1) instead of having 2 separate pools to track, your powers will be integrated into the Focus Point pool...2) to keep things flexible, everyone gets a small pool of Focus based on CHA...
3) to not disrupt powers usage, you'll either gain an additional increase to you FP pool based on your relevant ability score, or you'll get some way to replenish your FP pool also based on some relevant ability score.
The blog suggests that in order to make characters with powers playable they will each have a unique mechanic to get extra focus. One of my two points is that that is an overly complicated way to go about it. Specifically to the question that was my mention of eight different ways for each class to add extra focus this is added complexity for minimal benefit.
I don't see how this is a problem.
Most people aren't likely to choose to create a character that would need to know all, or even most, of these different mechanics at once.And if you are multi-classing in away that makes knowing an extra 4 (max) mechanics, then I suspect complexity wouldn't be an issue for you.
My other point was that I don't like the extra book-keeping of items which have one free use then cost focus thereafter and I at least would prefer if they increased the focus pool size a bit and just made activated items cost one focus per use. Probably a lot of activated items that when activated let you use the power for a minute or something like that.
I don't see how this is necessarily extra bookkeeping.
You had uses per day before along side resonance and your powers pool.Now it's just uses per day and focus pool.
Seems like over-all less bookkeeping to me unless I'm missing something.
My interpretation of that part of the blog was to mean that:1) instead of having 2 separate pools to track, your powers will be integrated into the Focus Point pool...
2) to keep things flexible, everyone gets a small pool of Focus based on CHA...
3) to not disrupt powers usage, you'll either gain an additional increase to you FP pool based on your relevant ability score, or you'll get some way to replenish your FP pool also based on some relevant ability score.
I agree on 1 and 2, not sure of that interpretation of 3. I see no evidence of that on the playtest character sheets so I don't think it is at all clear what they intend to do.
Most people aren't likely to choose to create a character that would need to know all, or even most, of these different mechanics at once.
And if you are multi-classing in away that makes knowing an extra 4 (max) mechanics, then I suspect complexity wouldn't be an issue for you.
I don't agree that it isn't an issue for two reasons.
1. Many players (most that I have gamed with) want to take a look at all the classes before they make a choice of class having different mechanics for essentially the same thing makes this more difficult.
2. Related if a player plays more than one game of Pathfinder they will likely play more than one class and each time they need to learn a new variation.
Admittedly thees are not huge increases in cognitive load but from my experience "it looks too complicated" is the number one reason people give for preferring 5e over Pathfinder. I am not saying PF should become as simple as 5e but I think PF2 needs to be more simple than PF1 is otherwise there is no point in making a new game.
A unified spell point mechanic was one of the selling points they talked about in the preview blogs and I think it was a good system.
You had uses per day before along side resonance and your powers pool.
Now it's just uses per day and focus pool.
Seems like over-all less bookkeeping to me unless I'm missing something.
I think at best it is comparable book-keeping you are combing spell points and resonance (or the non invested part anyways) but now all items that cost focus have additional riders either one free use per day to track or some other thing like wands have. Again each little increase in complexity is not too bad but overall I don't think the increase in complexity is worth it for the mechanic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're telling me that with your wizard you have always prepared all the spells you need at every moment? That's hogwash.
FOR THE LAST TIME. I'm playing a SORCERER not a wizard!
Your entire argument is moot.
I'm done here.
Huh - can spells in a staff be heightened?
If so, that actually provides awesome utility for a sorcerer. A blaster sorc would definitely want a staff of fire, just for the free ability to heighten fireballs so that you don't have to use your 2 heightened spells on that.
I think I read that they can't. I'd have to look it up again.
Having read more of the Resonance Test, I think that the way they have remixed wands and staves is overly complicated regardless of the bookkeeping.
Wands should work like staves.
Both should ditch the extra use per day.
That matches the new flavor of resonance, streamlines the system, and squashes the CLW wand problem.
Right now, I think the base system just needs a tweak instead of wildly redesigning all the powers and consumable items.
My thoughts so far:
Name - They should stick with Spell Points.
Ancestry - I don't think every ancestry should give points. Humans should not have innate magic, for example. Gnomes getting 2 and Elves getting 1 makes sense, the rest should depend on their particular heredity.
Charisma Pool for All - Hell no. There is no reason a martial shouldn't require special training to gain spell points like they were a Bard or whatever. This should require a feat or be rolled into ancestry/heredity.
Powers Pool - I agree that each spellcaster class should still get points from their class and still gain 1 from each power they gain.
My reasoning here is mostly that the idea that a martial can have innate magic and use it to effectively heighten a magic item really doesn't sit well with me.
To borrow some of Leedwashere's wording, "my highest-level preference" is that they bring back combat stamina for martials instead of everyone is innately magical. Having 2 pools is still way better than a bunch of different powers pools. I'd rather martials and casters be more different than more the same.