Buff Spells. Am I missing something?

[Mad Beetle]

Is my group and I missing something, or does most buff-spells only last 1 minute? Is there some action, item or feat that I missed that can increase the life-span of my magical effects?
I´m asking, since we just finished the 4th playtest scenario (Moonmirror?) and just before the last combat we were told that there was a lull in the battle and we could prepare ourselves, but it would shave 1 minute off of any spell-effects we had up.
Suffice to say, we were somewhat surprised, since the only buff we could cast that lasted longer than that was Telepathic Bond, which has an duration of 8 hours.
This made me wonder, have we have missed something?

[Siro]

Nope. They have watered down spells for various reasons. For buffs, I believe it was because, in PF1, after a certain Level, you would just lay down some all day buff spells for yourself and party, and suddenly they could take down things very far above there level with little effort.

Most spells in PF2 now have a generally short time, enough to last a battle/ to solve a very immediate problem, to combat the problem of all day walking tanks. Now there are many arguments wither this is a good thing or a bad thing, but that is neither here nor there.

[Siro]

At least "Heroism"-(10 Mins) and at a higher level "Fly"- (Level 7, 1 Hour) still as a decent lasting time.

[Mad Beetle]

Yeah, that´s about what I thought as well, but I wanted to ask anyway.
Thanks for the quick response.

[pauljathome]

There are some other spells with long durations. Consecrated ground springs to mind.

But yeah, most buffs tend to have to be cast in combat. Fortunately, most battles last long enough that this is an effective strategy.

[sherlock1701]

Yeah, we need to go back to 1 min/lvl and 10 min/lvl. With the reduced magnitude of buffs and the significant drop in number of spell slots, it's pretty lackluster as it stands.

[Draco18s]

pauljathome wrote:

There are some other spells with long durations. Consecrated ground springs to mind.

But yeah, most buffs tend to have to be cast in combat. Fortunately, most battles last long enough that this is an effective strategy.

Oh there's a bunch of day long (or 24 hour long, yes those are different and yes, the book has both) spells. They're just not buffs most of the time.

[StratoNexus]

While I am not positive I am a fan of the shorter duration buff spells, I do think it should be considered that they be 1 action or possibly even reaction spells and if they are not already, they should be 60 foot range.

Resist Energy at 1 minute duration is a reactive spell. You cast it as a defense, on the spot once you see something that will deal energy damage.

I am not feeling the level of resistance as being all that useful mind, but if you could cast it in 1 action on your turn or as a reaction when the energy type first appears, the small duration and the low protection could still be worth it.

I mean a 7th level spell that gives 5 folks 15 resistance to one energy type and it is Touch range and it lasts 1 minute?

Ice Devils Cone of Cold averages 52 damage before saving throws are calculated, but you would be mostly immune to its extra cold damage from melee attacks.

You can do well against the Slime Demon's melee acid, but it won't protect you from Smother.

A Valkyrie only averages 19 damage with it's electric spear attack and you will stop its cantrip.

An adult green dragon's breath weapon... oh wait, just suck it up. You're taking the 46 average damage before a save and you'll like it.

An adult blue dragon's 52 damage before a save is gonna hurt, but while its chewing on you, the electric damage won't hurt.

You will not be cold vs an Ice Yai Oni. The Fire Yai, on the other hand will burn you in several ways. The 22 average damage from its missile will hurt a little. The 35 average damage before saving from its at will Fireball will sting, but the 49 from its 7th level Fireball will sting more, but its Fire Shield is unlikely to hurt. The 21 damage from walking through its Wall of Fire is not too bad.

Adult red dragon fire, it burns. 52 average before the save, but your mostly OK from the heat while it nibbles you.

If for some reason a Deh-nolo opts to use energy damage with its crystal, your mostly OK.

I think I'd rather use a Heal in that 7th level slot. 13d8 to one target is pretty much guaranteed to be way more mitigation that Resist energy and the 7d8 AoE is still very likely more mitigation.

[Ascalaphus]

I'd grown a bit disillusioned with PF1 10m/level spells, because they either worked too well (do the entire dungeon in 1-2 hours while you're invincible) or didn't work well at all (encounters spaced out over a whole day, or surprised during a dinner party without your buffs up).

I'm okay with PF2 aiming more towards using only 1-2 buffs simultaneously. Oddly, short-term buffs mean you're rarely hurrying in the dungeon because doing two encounters on the same spell is not going to work anyway.

But I do think they could be a bit easier to apply. As a reaction at touch range, or at range for regular actions, would be nice.

[Draco18s]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I'm okay with PF2 aiming more towards using only 1-2 buffs simultaneously. Oddly, short-term buffs mean you're rarely hurrying in the dungeon because doing two encounters on the same spell is not going to work anyway.

Party: "There's a fire elemental in that room. Think you could hit us all with Resist Energy?"

Wizard: "No."
Party: "Why not?"
Wizard: "Because 1: its a single target spell and I didn't prepare FIVE of them. And 2: It only lasts a minute, if I spend five rounds buffing you guys, then we spend a round moving there, whoever I target first is only going to have the buff for 4 rounds."

[Ascalaphus]

Draco18s wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

I'm okay with PF2 aiming more towards using only 1-2 buffs simultaneously. Oddly, short-term buffs mean you're rarely hurrying in the dungeon because doing two encounters on the same spell is not going to work anyway.

Party: "There's a fire elemental in that room. Think you could hit us all with Resist Energy?"

Wizard: "No."
Party: "Why not?"
Wizard: "Because 1: its a single target spell and I didn't prepare FIVE of them. And 2: It only lasts a minute, if I spend five rounds buffing you guys, then we spend a round moving there, whoever I target first is only going to have the buff for 4 rounds."

Yeah, I think the Heighten entries make it clear that's intended; L4 lets you hit two characters at once and L7 lets you protect 5.

Fine, but for quality of life, could it pleeeease be Close range instead of touch? Touching five people is a positioning nightmare.

[Fuzzypaws]

I think a lot of the buffs could do with giving you the option to cast it on one person for a 10 minute duration or spread around multiple targets for a 1 minute duration, then increase duration when heightened.

[dnoisette]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I think a lot of the buffs could do with giving you the option to cast it on one person for a 10 minute duration or spread around multiple targets for a 1 minute duration, then increase duration when heightened.

This could be a decent alternative to just increasing buff spells duration, if Paizo doesn't want to completely dial back the nerfs.

[pad300]

The intent is a) buffs last only 1 fight, and b) mechanically, pre-buffing isn't allowed. Before Initiative, you are presumably in exploration mode(10 minute turns), and thus any buff you cast ends before the start of the next turn...I am not a fan.

[Gorignak227]

I don't really follow the logic on some spells getting nerfs while others didn't.
It seems like they kept some of the biggest GM headaches...

Nerfed communal air walk?
I'm okay with nerfing the air walk duration but it would be nice to be able to buff your melee guys (multiple) to allow them to attack flyers (without having to deal with potions and resonance).

They DIDN'T nerf invisibility
I'm really surprised invisibility in general didn't get more of a nerfing. They kept invisibility, greater invisibility, and invisibility sphere at the same PF1 power levels which allows the party to trivialize stealth encounters for 1 min/10 min/1 hr at a time?

And i thought they would have made Greater Invisibility at least require concentration to give monsters a chance to stop the flying and invisible nuke wizard.

I think they need to make see invisibility a targeted spell buff so martial guys can drink a potion and have some option against invisible creatures/mages.

[Snickersnax]

StratoNexus wrote:

While I am not positive I am a fan of the shorter duration buff spells, I do think it should be considered that they be 1 action or possibly even reaction spells and if they are not already, they should be 60 foot range.

I really like this idea. They could move more buff spells to the same action mechanic as heal.

1 action touch, 2 actions ranged, 3 actions AoE with diminished effect.

This would open up the opportunity to cast these spells as 1 action readied actions.

Not everything has to follow this plan, but having more than heal, magic missile, jump, message, shield, hypercognition, walking nightmare, powerword (kill and stun) and true strike be single action spells would be really nice.

[thenobledrake]

Invisibility doesn't actually trivialize stealth encounters any more thanks to the way sensing unseen creatures works, and the invisibility spell not providing a bonus to Stealth checks.

[Gorignak227]

thenobledrake wrote:

Invisibility doesn't actually trivialize stealth encounters any more thanks to the way sensing unseen creatures works, and the invisibility spell not providing a bonus to Stealth checks.

Good to know. I'll have to find those rules.