I feel it goes against the feel of being a Linnorm Monarch to kill the dragon with magic, so I’ll see what I can do with a martial. I’ll be back when I have something to present.
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As someone who has run into a Linnorm in a PFS module...
I was informed that you had to kill one by yourself _and_ you had to be a native of the area. I kept asking if I could be a Linnorm Duke, or Linnorm Jarl, but never did get a good answer. So I settled for calling myself 'Linnorm Bane'.
I know PFS has limitations on equipment and money-spent-on-equipment that homegames do not, but what I saw in the Season 9 module leads me to believe you aren't go to solo one at less than 14th level unless you are very lucky. (And very well prepared.)
I was going to say drop some terrain on them to pin them down and whale on them while they cant fight back effectively but ice linnorms have freedom of movement soooooo
Tell me your strategy to defeat an ice linnorm (CR 17) at level 8, solo :p
My strategy is to stand still and full attack it until it dies.
An archer would probably do this better, but I liked the feel of killing the CR 17 threat with a sword. For convenience sake, let’s name this character “Sword”. And we’ll make them female so that we know what pronoun to use.
I don’t have a full build, ‘cause that seemed unnecessary. Here’s the relevant numbers, though:
Level eight Suli Paladin, variant multiclass Cavalier.
Sword has a +36 to hit with her first attack, +31 with her second. That means that she’ll only miss the linnorm on a one.
+8 BAB
+6 STR (started with 19, increased at 4th and bought a belt)
+6 CHA (smiting) (started with nineteen, increased at 8th and bought a headband)
+3 Enhancement (+1 Dragonbane longsword)
+2 Divine Bond (I’m pretending that criticals don’t exist, so instead of getting Keen Sword just increased the enhancement bonus by two)
+2 Luck (divine favor and Fate’s Favored)
Sword’s damage is far from optimal, but she can kill the linnorm in three rounds. (After I realized how much investment it would take to kill the linnorm in one round, I put more focus into surviving three rounds in the ring than in overkilling the dragon.) She does 48 damage per attack, or 96 in a round. (As she only misses on a natural one.)
4.5 Base damage
7 Bane
9 STR
8 Smite
6 Challenge
5 Enhancement
3.5 Elemental Assault
Now we get to the trickiest part. Surviving three rounds against a CR 17 threat. It isn’t easy, and this is where bad rolls could kill the character.
A level eight paladin with 14 CON has 45.5 average hitpoints. (Assuming they put their favored class into skill ranks, but that’s a safe assumption in my experience.) I round down to 45. If the linnorm lands all four of it’s attacks, that’s enough to kill most level eight characters. (I did math for the linnorm’s attacks very lazily, I calculated average damage for the bite and assumed the other attacks were just as strong. They’re actually weaker, but we’ll assume the linnorm is rolling good for damage.) That’s not enough hitpoints, so Sword is going to take the feat toughness and cast bear’s endurance on herself. (She gets bear’s endurance from her oath against the wyrm.) Now she’s up to 66 hitpoints, which is enough to survive a full attack.
With Fey Foundling and vmc Cavalier, she can heal herself 33 hitpoints a round. That isn’t enough to just sit and tank full attacks, so she’ll need a decent AC. Pouring what’s left of her wealth by level into it, she can hit 36 AC, which means the linnorm only hits on a 12 or higher. Killing this dragon isn’t a sure thing, at level eight, but if the linnorm rolls below 12 half the time Sword can pull it off. Heroes defiance helps too.
10 Base
11 +2 Fullplate
4 +2 Shield
1 DEX
6 CHA (smiting)
2 Deflection (protection from evil rather than a ring)
1 Amulet of Natural Armor
1 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
So, that’s Sword. A level eight character who can kill a specific CR 17 monster, if it stands still and trades blows with her. Obviously if she had a friendly wizard to cast greater invisibility and haste on her the fight would go much smoother (or if I had remembered that boots of speed were a thing before I finished buying gear) but she proves as a proof of concept that a level eight character can kill a linnorm.
In a world where the highest possible character level is 8, and people can solo linnorms, it is reasonable to conclude that some linnorms, at least, are lower than CR 17 and adjust them accordingly.
If you adjust key mechanical aspects of the game (the coolest characters are no longer going to be level 20 for example) you will often have to adjust either the flavor of the setting or other mechanical aspects of the game to keep that flavor.
That means you will have to choose. Either kings don't really kill linnorms or linnorms are easier to kill. There are multiple ways to do either.
The characters saves matter in a fight vs an ice linnorm. The character you list has a roughly 50% chance to eat 1d6 con drain each time he gets bitten. and a greater chance to eat the full 80ish damage from a failed reflex vs its breath weapon.
The characters saves matter in a fight vs an ice linnorm. The character you list has a roughly 50% chance to eat 1d6 con drain each time he gets bitten. and a greater chance to eat the full 80ish damage from a failed reflex vs its breath weapon.
Oh yeah. Definitely.
If the linnorm does things besides stand still and full attack, Sword’s chances of not dying drop dramatically. Sword isn’t a well-made character, not at all. She’s a proof of concept, she only exists to show that a ice linnorm can feasibly be killed by a level eight character.
Someone actually attempting it needs better protection against that ice breath, a way to deal with the flight, and god-tier saves on top of offense and defense as strong as Sword’s. But I didn’t set out to make a character who could do all that. I set out to make a level eight character with enough raw stats to show that linnorms can be killed in an E8 game. And I think I succeeded at that.
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Human Tattooed Sorcerer - Orc Bloodline 8
Alternate racial trait - Fey Magic (Gain Perception as class skill)
Traits - Wayang Spellhunter (Magic Missile), Magical Lineage (Magic Missile), Outlander-Loreseeker (Magic Missile + 2 others )
Drawback - anything that doesn't affect you in this fight
20 point: STR 7 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 12 CHA 16+2 (Human)+1 (Level up)+1 (Level up)+2 (Headband)
Skills - Ride, Handle Animal, Perception maxed
1 - Spell Focus: Evocation, Reach Spell, Varisian Tattoo
3 - Piercing Spell, Blood Havoc
5 - Spell Penetration
7 - Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative
Buy a combat trained Hippogriff and use its amazing move speed to keep out of range of the Linnorm while Reach Piercing Magic Missile-ing it down. Once it's unconscious, CDG repeatedly with a cold iron weapon. If you buy 3 Runestones of Power and 29 Dweomer's Essenses, you get 29 shots that each beat SR on a roll of 4 or better. You deal 17.5 damage a round after you factor in regeneration. I'm not doing great math*, but you knock it unconscious in roughly 27 shots. That gives you a roughly 2 round window to approach and start CDG'ing - not great but possible.
This is pretty reliant on the Linnorm staying in your 800ft. range but I think it's pretty reasonable that the 5 Int apex predator chases the thing that's barely doing any damage to it for long enough that this works. You'll have to lure it somewhere where it won't be able to run to a hiding place to regenerate when it catches on that it won't win this fight. I suggest straight up. It's got a run speed of 400ft. a round. Anything under 5000ft doesn't involve checks for thin air due to atmosphere, so that's the height limit. If you're fighting pretty close to the 5000ft. mark, it won't be able to escape. It needs 13 rounds to reasonably find cover from that height, which means it needs to decide to quit sometime before dropping below 50% HP. I don't think it's that much of a leap of faith that it will chase you until it drops below 50% HP.
Perception is another issue. Fighting the Linnorm on a clear day (-2 to the DC for favorable conditions**) makes the check to keep line of sight at a safe distance (>260ft.) DC 24. With Eyes of the Eagle, you have +16 Perception. This is where the build might fall apart. If you have to make that check every round, you're not gonna do it consistently enough to outdamage its regeneration. Just once to initially spot it? You're fine. I'd personally argue that you should apply its size-based Stealth penalty to Perception checks to spot it anyways, making the DC 8. Luckily, it's not a problem the other way around - the Linnorm has an easy time keeping its eye on you.
It's not actually that bad to play for a total optimization build. The only non-Runestone/Dweomer items you can afford are the Headband of Charisma +2 and the Eyes of the Eagle but as a caster that's not the worst. You've still got great Charisma, so you'll be good at save-or-suck stuff and you've got the whole Orc Bloodline+Blood Havoc thing going for damage. That alone can get you through the early levels - you're doing 2d4+4 auto-hit damage at level 1 and 3d4+9 at level 3. Animal handling is also pretty useful as a skill set if you use it.
I think the biggest obstacle is really getting past the breath weapon. I avoided it by just not being in close enough range. It's pretty much a death sentence to get frozen, though, so I'm pretty sure Evasion or Protection From Cold is necessary to get in melee range with this thing. Even with Int 5, I'm pretty sure its reaction to something that can effectively melee it would be to start kiting, so you also need a way to deal with that 100ft. fly speed. Or be a ranged attacker.
*Warning: I'm not a mathematician. I did 17.5*30, then took 80% of that to account for missed shots, then rounded down because there's no fractions in Pathfinder to get 420. Next, I took 20% of 30, which is 6, then multiplied that by ten to get 60. The 60 represents the regeneration on rounds where you miss. Subtract that from the total for 340, then subtract the Linnorm's health to get 61. The difference between that and your total damage is roughly 3.5 shots worth of damage, so on average the 27th shot knocks the Linnorm unconscious.
**A clear day might not actually be favorable conditions with your light sensitivity. A grey day with good visibility maybe? Doesn't really matter - DC 24 and 26 are effectively the same for this build's purposes.
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Archer paladin, oath against the wyrm. Uses stealth and consumables to get close, set up smite and haste and all, then full attacks the linnorms flat footed ac to one round it with obscene smite damage and litany of righteousness.
Total average damage ignoring nat 1s and crits = 411
Auto hits flat footed ac and is undetectable until after it attacks due to outstealthing the linnorms maximum perception by taking 10 on stealth and is unaffected by true seeing.
I haven't slept in a long time so this is all probably really sloppy. But if it can be done by one character I'm sure a party can do it if they prep for it.
So yeah, archers are really strong and paladins are really good at killing evil things, not a huge surprise here.
This character isnt great if they don't catch the linnorm off guard but since they can guarantee it I think that's a fine condition.
litany of righteousness.
You won't beat it's spell resistance, which means it'll take you two turns to kill the dragon. Can you survive them?
I haven't slept in a long time so this is all probably really sloppy. But if it can be done by one character I'm sure a party can do it if they prep for it.
Preach, sibling. Also, take a nap. :concerned face:
Horseback archer might be able to take it down if the horse is jacked up to be at least as fast as the dragon.
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Dwarf Dragon Hunter Ranger 2/Musket Master 5/Urban Barbarian 1
STR 8 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 7
Feats, Traits, FCB
Traits - Reactionary, Glory of Old
FCB - Gunslinger Dwarf x4, HP x1
1 - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Gunsmithing
3 - Dodge, Rapid Shot
4 - +1 Dexterity
5 - Deadly Aim
6 - Mobility
7 - Deft Shootist
8 - +1 Dexterity
Gear
+1 Reliable Dragonbane Musket (19500 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000 gp)
Wand of Heightened Awareness (750 gp)
Potion of Haste (750 gp)
Potion of Protection From Energy (Cold)(750 gp)
Cracked Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (500 gp)
Potion of Cat's Grace (300 gp)
Potion of Delay Poison (300 gp)
Elixir of Hiding (250 gp)
CL 5 Potion of Anticipate Peril (125 gp)
Blood-Boiling Pill (75 gp)
Antitoxin x2 (50 gp each)
Mwk Stealth Item (50 gp)
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge (24 gp a shot/12 gp a shot crafted)
Skills
Craft (Alchemy) +12, Heal +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +12 (+14 v. Dragons), Perception +13 (+15 v. Dragons), Stealth +18 (+30 buffed), Survival +13 (+15 v. Dragons)
Buffed Initiative
+7 Dexterity
+2 Trait
+5 Anticipate Peril
+4 Heightened Awareness
+2 Blood-Boiling Pill
Total:+20
Attack and Damage
-2 Rapid Shot
-3 Deadly Aim
-4 Gunner's Buckler
+8 Base Attack Bonus
+9 Dexterity
+1 Weapon
+1 Point Blank Shot
+1 Musket Training
+2 Favored Enemy
+2 Bane
+1 Haste
+1 Weapon
+1d12 Weapon
+1 Musket Training
+9 Dexterity
+2 Bane
+2d6 Bane
+1 Point Blank Shot
+6 Deadly Aim
+2 Favored Enemy
+15/+15/+15/+10 1d12+22+2d6
Same premise as fearcypher but geared to survive a single hit by the Linnorm. You sneak to within Point Blank range, get your surprise round shot, win initiative and full attack, then pray that the Linnorm doesn't use its tail to grab or disengage and start kiting. For what it's worth, I think the Linnorms two most likely opening combat moves are to charge and bite or to use its breath weapon and follow up by positioning itself roughly 15ft. above you to make the most of its Combat Reflexes. You get the kill on your second full attack using average rolls and don't die from getting hit once by any of its attacks (at least initially - you're probably gonna need to see a cleric about the poison. Especially since you likely won't save against the death curse and that makes the poison worse).
You hit its touch AC on a 2, so that's not an issue. The minimum damage is lower than I'd like (225 if you roll all 1s on damage dice) but you kill it on average damage with just 8 out of your 9 attacks, so there is still some leeway. You don't suffer misfire either, so there isn't any issue with missing if it does happen.
Surviving the poison if you get bit is another issue. Your base Fort save, Constitution, Dwarf stuff, Cloak of Resistance +2, and Antitoxin add up to +20 on saves versus poison - that's good enough that you'll probably avoid contracting it but it's not good enough that I'd be confident in making 3 consecutive saves. I wouldn't want to bet my life on it, anyways. Ultimately the best solution is probably to pay a high level caster to have Greater Neutralize Poison prepped for you and buy enough potions of Delay Poison to make it to them.
I don't like this character as much as the sorcerer for the purpose of completing the exercise. The Sorcerer is far more likely to have the Linnorm react as planned and since it rolls a ton of dice, it's also more likely to actually deal something pretty close to its averages. I like this character a lot better for the purposes of actually playing the game. Your build and gear is a lot more reasonable for playing it from 1-8.
Re did the math on the archer paladin according to the DPR formula
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Total damage comes out to 337.725 with crits and nat 1s factored in without litany of righteousness or the double paladin level on the first arrow.
Also if you don't want to use Litany of righteousness you don't need to be within 30 ft and can just start sniping from 1100 ft away with a composite longbow.
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However, even though a highly optimized PC can kill a Linnorm if they are specialized in Linnorm slaying I wouldn't send a singular PC against a Linnorm.
Though these types of characters would be fine as npc kings who hav e defeated various Linnorms
Also if you don't want to use Litany of righteousness you don't need to be within 30 ft and can just start sniping from 1100 ft away with a composite longbow.
Shouldn't be within 30ft. anyways, the Linnorm's Combat Reflexes lets it make AoOs when it's flat footed. An archer'd be pasted if it was fighting in the Linnorm's reach. Not that within 30ft. is necessary for Litany of Righteousness, you've got a 35ft range on it. Bigger issue there is that you can't beat SR.
.95*(39.5)*.5*2*39.5*.95
I don't think your math is right. You forgot a 0 and Bane's 2d6 is treated like precision damage w/regard to criticals. It's .95*(32.5+7)+.05*2*32.5*.95. I looked over your attacks again, too. I'm not sure what the -7 penalty is because you should have a -5 penalty: -2 from Rapid Shot and -3 from Deadly Aim. Fixing that, your attack bonuses add up to up to 22, which means you've got an attack routine of +22/+22/+22/+22/+17, which isn't 95% versus flat footed. Near as I can figure, your Paladin does ((.85*(32.5+7)+.05*2*32.5*.85)*4) + (.6*(32.5+7)+.05*2*32.5*.6) + 8 (first successful smite) = 179 average damage.
Your Paladin might be capable of taking down the Linnorm given the amount of time it needs to reach you if you start attacking 1100ft. away. It'll be roughly 3 rounds, since its max speed is 400ft. a round. I don't really want to figure out the math with distance penalties changing each round but you only need to land 7 or 8 arrows.
FWIW, I think level 8 DPS based PCs would be fine soloing Crag Linnorms, since that's just a matter of having a Cold Iron weapon and doing 100 damage a round through 29 AC. It's weird that OP picked the Ice Linnorm with there being lower CR options.
I mean the other thing is even in E8 the people who killed one were probably level 17 equivalent in advancement...feats and the like.... Yeah, By a CR equivalent level of exp you're level 8 + 249 other feats.
I mean the other thing is even in E8 the people who killed one were probably level 17 equivalent in advancement...feats and the like.... Yeah, By a CR equivalent level of exp you're level 8 + 249 other feats.
Plus you're able to afford a bunch of equipment that these examples can't. That's really another reason I don't think any DPS class would have a hard time standing up to the Crag Linnorm - Asmodeus' Advocate demonstrated that it isn't hard to get enough AC to tank, and my Dwarf shows you can beat the poison consistently.
The Ice Linnorm is still quite difficult to beat - that breath weapon is brutal and you really need to be able to kill it in one or two rounds or be able to fight it at range. It's relatively hard for a melee character to deal 140 damage a round even with unlimited feats/items when they're limited to ~3 attacks a round. You need at least 47 damage a hit. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is sitting at the upper limits of any non-total optimization character. Not everyone plays archers or casters.
Thanks for the replies. I talked about Ice Linnorm because of White Estrid's Ice Linnorm.
If you want to be the king of the ironbound isles, you'll need to kill this Linnorm and then, defy White Estrid and kill her (and find a way not to have to fight both solo together).
I would definitely just change it to a Crag Linnorm, then. Pretty much all of these responses assumed fighting a Linnorm out in the wild and being able to set up advantages against an unsuspecting and unintelligent creature. It's an incredibly high risk scenario and the chance to have to fight someone who is capable of beating an Ice Linnorm on top of that? Downgrade the encounter. Crag Linnorm is just as high stakes but a knowledgeable and well equipped PC has a favorable chance of beating it. You pretty much need to be minmax'd dragon killer to take on the Ice Linnorm.
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As someone who has run into a Linnorm in a PFS module...
I was informed that you had to kill one by yourself _and_ you had to be a native of the area. I kept asking if I could be a Linnorm Duke, or Linnorm Jarl, but never did get a good answer. So I settled for calling myself 'Linnorm Bane'.
I know PFS has limitations on equipment and money-spent-on-equipment that homegames do not, but what I saw in the Season 9 module leads me to believe you aren't go to solo one at less than 14th level unless you are very lucky. (And very well prepared.)
the only PFS scenario that actually has a linnorm in it specifically calls out that the weird reanimated linnorm you after fight, the face is so messed up and rotted that no one would take you seriously if you said you beat it