Cantrips and Dedication Feats

[Delay]

I was looking at the Dedication Feats and a few questions regarding Cantrips came to mind.

For Cantrips, as explained on page 193, it says, "A cantrip is always automatically heightened to the highest level of spell you can cast in the class. This makes a cantrip a 1st-level spell if you can cast 1st-level spells [and so on]. If you gain access to a cantrip but aren't normally a spellcaster, your cantrips automatically heightened to half your level, rounded up." The grammar error in the last sentence is a bit jarring, but that is what it says. But I digress.

1) If you cannot cast spells in the class, can they be heightened? Based on the last sentence of this description, I would presume yes.

2) For every spellcaster in this book, it seems as though the highest spell they can cast is already half their level rounded up. If that is the case, then is there supposed to be a distinction between a spellcaster and a non-spellcaster when casting cantrips? If there isn't a distinction to be made and cantrips are always heightened to half a character's level rounded up, then why does the description seem so convoluted?

For Basic Cleric Spellcasting, it says, "Even though you can cast spells, the spell level of your cleric cantrips and domain is powers half your level rounded up." Another typo, but I digress.

For Basic Wizard Spellcasting, it says, "Even though you can cast spells, the spell level of your cantrips and arcane powers is half your level rounded up."

Neither of these feats mention the acquisition of Cantrips or Powers. So it seems as though there is (or may have been at one point) some distinction between being able to cast spells and the level to which cantrips can be heightened.

However, considering that it seems as though 'half your level rounded up' is the highest level of spell any of the spellcasters can cast, is there supposed to be some distinction here? Also, it once again mentions the ability to cast spells, but in the description for Cantrips on Page 193, as mentioned before, the ability to cast spells doesn't actually seem relevant...???

For Cleric Dedication, it also says, 'You can prepare two cantrips each day from the divine spell list or any other cantrips you learn or discover."

3) What do you mean by 'learn or discover'? Is this specifically only for classes like Wizard and Sorcerer who have to pick which Cantrips they know? Or does this also apply to the Cantrips a druid would have access to from the Primal spell list?

4) If these Cantrips can be taken from an alternate list or source (Arcane, Primal, Occult), would they still be treated as Divine or use Wis as its key spellcasting ability?

5) If there is some distinction to be made for the heightening of Cantrips, would this limitation still be made to the Cantrips provided by Cleric Dedication if they were substituted by a Cantrip from a different list or source?

[masda_gib]

Yeah, If someone could explain to me why they let cantrips scale per highest level you can cast... and then change this rule in every case to half level when spellcasting progress is slowed, that would be nice.

Why don't cantrips always scale per half level? Far less complicated.

The only case where that would effect something is when a caster doesn't coose 10th level spells. Or am I missing something?

[Amaranthine Witch]

When you do not have spells, your cantrips scale to half your character level rounded up. Wizard dedication and Cleric dedication grant you cantrips but not spells, so the cantrips follow this rule.

When you have spells, your cantrips scale to the highest level spell you can cast (which is half your character level rounded up for all casters). When you take basic wizard spellcasting or basic cleirc spellcasting the highest level spell you can cast is less than half your level rounded up, so your cantrips would lose power by taking these feats. That's why they made explicit that your cantrips still scale as if you had no spells instead of getting downgraded.

[Delay]

Thank you for your response, Amaranthine Witch.

That does make a lot of sense regarding the cantrips losing some power without that statement.

However, I feel like a lot of confusion can be avoided if they just went with a much simpler explanation for Cantrips. For example, just saying 'Cantrips are always heightened to a spell level equivalent to half your character's level rounded up' would reduce a lot of the verbiage and make it easier to understand. I also feel like it would eliminate the need for the disclaimer for feats like Basic Cleric Spellcasting and Basic Wizard Spellcasting.

[Delay]

masda_gib wrote:

The only case where that would affect something is when a caster doesn't choose 10th level spells. Or am I missing something?

Based on the rule, I don't believe this even matters. A 19th or 20th level character would still be able to cast cantrips heightened to the 10th spell level regardless of whether or not they can cast a 10th level spell.

[Amaranthine Witch]

Delay wrote:

masda_gib wrote:

The only case where that would affect something is when a caster doesn't choose 10th level spells. Or am I missing something?

Based on the rule, I don't believe this even matters. A 19th or 20th level character would still be able to cast cantrips heightened to the 10th spell level regardless of whether or not they can cast a 10th level spell.

I think, based on the rules, that you only get 10th level cantrips if you take the feat to cast 10th level spells or your cantrips scale to half your level rounded up.

What makes this weird though is that pure casters may get 10th level cantrips a level later than multiclass or non casters (19th vs 20th, when you can take the feat) or not at all if they don't take the feat to cast 10th level spells.