Yeah, the more splatbooks you allow the more that sentence is false - but I am sortof comparing PF2 to core PF1 there. And most APs still follow that same paradigm, too.
The 4-degree system relies on the idea that you are going to fight things that are lower level than you.
Just like in P1.
This is part of why it always seems off to me when theory crafters talk about fighting monsters on your level one-on-one in examples. Not that it will never happen, but it seems like, past level 1, the vast majority of enemies you fight over a career are going to be levels below you, giving you a lot more opportunities to feel awesome with the +level bonus, and then letting the occasional on level Boss really feel like a challenge.
What seems off to me is dismissing those that actually understand the underlying maths (treadmill garbage that has been tried numerous times in the past, and failed, miserably) of the game, because they don't think +Level is the bee's knees. Not theory crafting, just crafting, running numbers and scenarios. One might ought to try it, before one blindly rails against those that do not like what one likes (especially when those likes seem emotionally based).This is part of why it always seems off to me when theory crafters talk about fighting monsters on your level one-on-one in examples.
The 4-degree system relies on the idea that you are going to fight things that are lower level than you.
Just like in P1.
Vic, My argument was against a +.5 level bonus, because that makes for really awkward math as far as level balance, and monster power level. I would much rather have no level bonus to proficiencies than .5 level bonus because the game doesn't progress well in fractional values. That is a huge part of what fell apart for 3.x in its level design, especially when paired with its open-ended multi-classing.
What seems off to me is dismissing those that actually understand the underlying maths (treadmill garbage that has been tried numerous times in the past, and failed, miserably) of the game, because they don't think +Level is the bee's knees. Not theory crafting, just crafting, running numbers and scenarios. One might ought to try it, before one blindly rails against those that do not like what one likes (especially when those likes seem emotionally based).This is part of why it always seems off to me when theory crafters talk about fighting monsters on your level one-on-one in examples.
The 4-degree system relies on the idea that you are going to fight things that are lower level than you.
Just like in P1.
Yes, though the reason to fight creatures lower level than the party is more the +1/level system than the 4-degrees-of-success system. The 4-degrees system increases the impact of a +1, but the +1 is the key.
The greater the improvement in combat and skills per level, the easier fighting lower-level creatures becomes and the harder fighting higher-level creatures becomes.
And I won't like running a campaign for a party of murderhoboing bullies who beat up only creatures weaker than them. Fortunately, my players don't want to play murderhoboing bullies, either. The party typically fights one creature 2 or 3 levels above them. Sometimes they fight crowds of creatures 1 or 2 levels below them, but they will often make attempts to intimidate living creatures (undead are fair game). Or they fight a mix, one high-level boss with several low-level cannon-fodder minions. While the +1/level system reduces the minions to mere speed bumps, those speed bumps give the boss time to deliver a lot of hurt to the party.
Here's an absolutely insane idea: Keep +1/Level, reduce max level to 10. Double the Hit Points you'd get from levelling up (Sorcerer would be 12 + twice your CON, for example). At 1st level, get your 1st and 2nd level Class Features. 2nd Level gives you your 3rd and 4th level Class Features, and so on. Feat and Magic Item level requirements are halved, rounded up. Double the XP needed to level up. You keep +1/Level and none of the powers or abilities need to change at all.
Here's an absolutely insane idea: Keep +1/Level, reduce max level to 10.The 13th Age way, and 10th-level Fighters deal 10d8 with a longsword, no thanks.
Nope, I am not advocating 10d8 longsword damage, not in the slightest. The ONLY change I'm presenting here is (effectively) halving level bonus to ability checks. Every single other mechanic in the game works exactly the same.
d20 isn't a simulationist system and wanting it to be just ends poorly. There are plenty of better system that handle skill diversity better. E.g. GURPS has vastly more granular skills and so your Running skill doesn't interact with your Climbing skill doesn't interact with your Swimming skill does interact with your SCUBA skill.
One thing that it also introduces is familiarity penalties. That's something that would allow your +20 Athletics, desert-dwelling fighter to still not be able to swim without going back to granular skills.
There seems to be a disconnect between your skill proficiency, which is your potential, and your skill training, which is your expertise.
Untrained skills let you do things that you would have had a reasonable chance to succeed at just existing in the world. There are exceptions like the famous Swimming desert dweller (though tearing down the system because of edge cases isn't smart game design).
Stealing and hiding objects from others is something that children learn from a young age. I have no formal training in thieving, but if I tried I could probably pocket an unattended object even with other people in the room.
d20 has a lot of inelegant systems. Dexterity, strength, will, and intelligence are all components of success at feats of skill and strength. Wisdom and intelligence aren't really separate concepts in real life. Knowing things can't really be separated out into "book" knowledge vs. "common" knowledge regardless of our love of all things folksy. Athleticism in one arena doesn't prepare you for another. Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, and Karen Chen could not compete in each other's competitions.
Pathfinder can go one of two ways. It can go a GURPS route where everything is based on a huge number of skills where being good in one thing doesn't really help you that much in another. Or it can try and create a simplified experience with lots of interesting powers with the understanding that sometimes a combined skill will mean you can do something that doesn't make sense. Given Pathfinder's legacy, the latter seems preferable.
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Nope, I am not advocating 10d8 longsword damage, not in the slightest. The ONLY change I'm presenting here is (effectively) halving level bonus to ability checks. Every single other mechanic in the game works exactly the same.Here's an absolutely insane idea: Keep +1/Level, reduce max level to 10.The 13th Age way, and 10th-level Fighters deal 10d8 with a longsword, no thanks.I know, it's okay, I was just saying that 13th Age is a +Level, goes to 10th level game, they also increase weapon damage by class level, which would actually be good for PF2 (but toned down, something like +1 per 4 levels), so you do not have to rely on magic weapons to keep up (damage-wise).
I don't know enough about balancing damage scaling in PF 2.0 to postulate on that.
So, are you advocating that ability checks are +1/2 Level, but everything else remains +Level?
Kind of? I'll explain again in case it wasn't clear.
1) Characters add their full Level to ability checks.
2) Level ranges from 1 to 10 instead of 1 to 20.
3) At Level 1, characters gain access to all the Class Features they'd currently receive at 1st and 2nd level. At Level 2, they get the 3rd and 4th level features. At Level 3, the 5th and 6th level features, and so on.
4) The Level requirements of Feats and Magic Items and so on are halved, rounded up. For example, an Invisibility Potion is currently a Level 3 Item, with this change it would be a Level 2 item.
5) Class features that depend on your Level now depend on twice your Level, and ones that depend on half your level now depend on your full level. For example, base Resonance is now CHA + twice your Level. Expanded Resonance for the Alchemist is now a 5th level Class Features that grants additional Resonance equal to your Level for use with Alchemy.
6) Skill DCs by Level and Difficulty remain roughly the same. A Level 10 character, the highest level in this model, would have the following Skill DCs (from page 337): Trivial 19, Low 24, High 27, Devere 29, and Extreme 32. You could possibly raise these by 1 since by level 10 you're expected to be Legendary in a few Skills.
7) Characters gain twice as many Hit Points per Level; for example, a Sorcerer would have 12 + twice their CON + their Ancestry bonus Hit Points at first level. At 2nd level it would be 24 + four times their CON + their Ancestry bonus.
Essentially, this crazy fix would keep all of the spells, feats, and class features the same, but it would 'effectively' cut Level bonus in half. This change also creates the fun situation where spellcasters get 2nd level spells at 2nd level, and 3rd level spells at 3rd level, and so on. For me, that's a lot easier for a novice to remember.
This does create the situation where characters get a LOT of feats at every level, since you're doubling up class feature gain per level. Honestly, my solution would be to boost the power of feats and reduce the number of feats you get, but that's neither here nor there.
Right on, cool, sounds like another interesting way to go, have you tried it out yet, run comparisons, scenarios?
I just came up with it last night when I posted. I haven't had the time to test it yet, and my group has been having trouble getting together for the last month. You're welcome to try it out with your group, I'd love to hear what the players thought and how your session went.
Dunno but Modern PF1 nowadays assumes the weakest enemy you'll fight is CR = APL for the trivial encounters. Parties don't start sweating til like APL+3. Yeah, it's power creeped, but that's how it plays nowadays, and why 2E feels so jarring in this respect.
Fighting an enemy of CR lower than your level in PF1 is a total waste of time and likely no PC will take even 1 damage.
Fighting 'an' enemy of lower CR is ridiculously easy, but that doesn't mean they can't work in larger numbers.
Last time I ran an adventure path, the game expected you to fight CR 10 minions right up until you were level 15. (But no, they weren't much of a challenge, since they couldn't hit any PC who had kept their Armor Class up.)
So, are you advocating that ability checks are +1/2 Level, but everything else remains +Level?Kind of? I'll explain again in case it wasn't clear.
1) Characters add their full Level to ability checks.
2) Level ranges from 1 to 10 instead of 1 to 20.
3) At Level 1, characters gain access to all the Class Features they'd currently receive at 1st and 2nd level. At Level 2, they get the 3rd and 4th level features. At Level 3, the 5th and 6th level features, and so on.
....
In summary, GwynHawk's proposal to avoid the significantly game-altering difference between even levels and odd levels that +0.5/level would create is to play only the even levels. For simplicity, we would call those levels by half their usual level number.
That makes sense, but I prefer less drastic level-ups.
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In summary, GwynHawk's proposal to avoid the significantly game-altering difference between even levels and odd levels that +0.5/level would create is to play only the even levels. For simplicity, we would call those levels by half their usual level number.
That makes sense, but I prefer less drastic level-ups.
Pretty much. I'm also not a huge fan of drastic level-ups so I share your concerns. If Feats and Ability Boosts were more evenly distributed you could let people pick up individual class features and feats with XP until they got all of them, at which point their Level would go up. Something really roughly like:
Advancement: For every 250 XP you gain, pick one of the following. You can't pick the same thing twice. When you reach 1,000 XP, pick the last option and raise your Level by 1.
1) Skill feat and Skill Increase
2) General feat
3) Class Feat OR Improved Spellcasting
4) Class Feat
When you reach 2nd, 4th, 7th, and 9th level you also gain an Ancestry Feat.
When you reach 3rd, 5th, 8th, and 10th level you also gain an Ability Boost.
Again that's not a perfect model but it's a way you could piece out individual bonuses a bit slower.