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I came across this section of the CRB that states you target the grid intersection with throwing grenades and the AC is 5! It is almost impossible to miss. Grenades are really powerfull, because you are pretty much guaranteed to hit! Am I missing something here?
For reference:
CRB page 245
Targeting a Grid Intersection When using a thrown weapon that has an area effect, such as a grenade, you target a specific grid intersection on a tactical battle map, rather than a specific creature. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5.
CRB page 245
Range and Penalties A ranged weapon’s range increment is listed along with its other statistics (see Chapter 7). If you make an attack with a ranged weapon from a distance greater than its listed range, you take a cumulative –2 penalty to the attack roll for each full range increment of distance between you and the target beyond the first (or fraction thereof). For most ranged weapons, the maximum range is 10 range increments, or 10× the number listed as the weapon’s range. For thrown weapons, the maximum range is 5 range increments. Some ranged weapons have different maximum ranges, but if so, their descriptions specify their maximum ranges.
page 241
Ranged Attack with a Thrown Weapon Base attack bonus + Strength modifier – any range penalty (see page 245)
They are super expensive and become cost ineffective at mid to high level. Sure, you can find them on defeated enemies but not handing out a ton of free powerful AoE weapons is the GMs responsibility.
The reflex save stays on a decent curve regardless of level of play and even characters with poor reflex saves seem to pass the reflex save 40% of the time give or take.
They seem really powerful but in play they aren't that wild.
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Poor range increments and the application of hit penalties to your save DC are also problems.
Xenocrat wrote: Poor range increments and the application of hit penalties to your save DC are also problems. The range increments are not that bad:
20 ft AC 5
40 ft AC 7
60 ft AC 9
80 ft AC 11
100 ft AC 13
It is still on the easy side of things when it comes to hitting the grid where you want.
I am not sure what you mean by the hit penalties - please explain.
The DC reflex save of 10 + half item level + dex mod is not to bad. You will most likely be dealing damage to multiple foes. Those with better saves and/or improved evasion will always be better off. But thats not everyone.
And, yes, it is a costly item, but you do get them for free from the adventures, and it is better to use them than to sell them.
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Weapon Special Property and Critical Hit DCs, pg 181, Core rulebook wrote: Some weapons that explode or cause critical hit effects (see page 182) allow the target to attempt a saving throw. The DC of such a saving throw is typically equal to 10 + half the weapon’s item level + one of your ability modifiers. Unless stated otherwise, the ability modifier corresponds to the ability score you’d normally use to make an attack with that weapon (Dexterity for a ranged or thrown weapon, and Strength for a melee weapon). Any penalty you would normally take to your weapon attack roll also applies to this DC, including penalties from the weapon’s range increment. Every range increment imposes a -2 penalty to hit. The issue isn't that it's going to make you miss your grid intersection, it's that it penalizes your save DC by 2. So every range increment increases the chance to save by 10%. They're usually going to have a 40-60% chance to save at one range increment (no penalty). If you throw four range increments, they've got a 70-90% chance to save (-6 DC penalty). That's bad for grenade damage, but terrible for inflicting those extra burning or entangled effects that make some grenades (theoretically) pretty good.
Thanks for pointing that out for me- makes more sense now.
Grenades are:
1) Expensive if you buy them at grenade item level = character level
2) If you're not using level equivalent grenades, damage isn't really meaningful...
3) Especially if they make their save which...
4) Will probably happen since the DCs aren't very high, and will negate secondary effects.
About the only way for grenades to be "cool" is if you play a bombard soldier and can have a free level equivalent grenade per combat.
Compare an level 6d6 frag grenade vs a level 10 aurora shock caster which does 2d12. Both have a 15ft explosion radius and offer saves for half damage. The grenade does a little more than double the damage on average, but each use of a grenade costs 5,750 credits. Vs 19,100 for the heavy weapon. So 4 grenades are approximately the same costs as the gun.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Grenades' usefulness isn't only in their damage capability. The ability to create smoke clouds to block line of sight or disable lasers is quite the tool to have in your belt.
You'll only ever use grenades you found.
Fumarole wrote: Grenades' usefulness isn't only in their damage capability. The ability to create smoke clouds to block line of sight or disable lasers is quite the tool to have in your belt. Smoke grenades are the only exception to grenades' otherwise lackluster mechanics.
Providing concealment and reducing the effectiveness of lasers is great, but when talking about grenades people usually mean for damage purposes, not the utility of smoke grenades.
The Ragi wrote: You'll only ever use grenades you found. You actually get a fair amount in the Dead Suns adventure- it’s not that bad.
I don't understand the reason why people say smoke negates lasers?
References:
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On page 184 in the Core Rule Book under Laser Weapons, it says that:
Fog, smoke and other Clouds provide both cover and concealment from laser attacks.
Smoke Grenades:
A smoke grenade deals no damage; instead, it releases a cloud of dense smoke. Each character who inhales smoke must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw each round (DC = 15 + 1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing; he can do nothing else. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 nonlethal damage. (Active environmental protection from a suit of armor prevents this effect altogether.) Regardless of the armor a character wears, smoke obscures vision, granting concealment to anyone within it.
Concealment Miss Chance
Concealment gives the target of a successful attack a chance that the attacker actually missed. This is called a miss chance. Normally, the miss chance for concealment is 20%. Make the attack normally; if the attacking creature would hit, the target must roll a 20 or lower on a d% roll (see page 513) to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
Partial Cover
If more than half of you is visible, your bonuses from cover are reduced to +2 to AC and +1 to Reflex saving throws.
Improved Cover
In some cases, such as when a target is hiding behind a gun port in a defensive wall, cover provides greater bonuses to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal bonuses to AC and Reflex saves are doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively).
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Smoke doesn't indicate TOTAL cover, just cover, so at best, a GM could rule smoke provides total concealment (but I would disagree with that), which makes it a 50% miss chance, plus the cover for lasers is a -2 (or -4 if you rule improved cover, which I wouldn't) to hit.
Nowhere in the RAW do I see anything about lasers being negated.
Also, on the range increment - don't forget about the NIL Grenade launchers.... Basic level 1 item, 280 creds, 60 ft range increment.
Negated was hyperbole. They’re just seriously hindered.
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Smoke would provide -4 to hit, since it provides cover, not partial cover. Or at least, that is my reading of the rules.
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Metaphysician wrote: Smoke would provide -4 to hit, since it provides cover, not partial cover. Or at least, that is my reading of the rules. Interestingly, the rules don't specify the type/level of cover or concealment. Improved Cover (gun port in a defensive wall) is what provides the -4, and I'm not really sure I'd agree that smoke can provide the same level of cover as a wall. If the rules said total concealment, I could buy that, but they don't.
So we're left to interpret "cover and concealment" ourselves as meaning partial cover, improved cover, or total cover AND concealment or total concealment. Clearly, the rules don't say TOTAL concealment, so the 20% miss chance is all there is for that. But partial, improved, or total cover? Given the description ("more than half of you is visible" vs hiding "behind a defensive wall or gun port") I'd have to connect smoke with partial cover rather than improved cover. Total cover can't apply since that's like being around the corner or behind a wall and not looking out, etc - something you simply can't shoot through, and that just isn't the case with smoke.
Personally, I think this needs to be in a FAQ.
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No, cover is +4 AC and +2 reflex, full/total/improved (I forget the real name) cover is +8 AC and +4 reflex. Regular cover is sort of hidden in the introductory paragraph, your eye slides off it to the subheadings that detail lesser and greater versions. Just plain cover is both defined mechanically and is the default unless the limiting (half your body is exposed) or enhancing (gun port in a wall) conditions exist. Smoke says it gives cover against lasers, so it gives +4 AC regular cover (and then 20% concealment if you still hit).
Source: I looked it up yesterday before I posted something that would have been wrong in a different way.
Yeah, your mixing it up with Partial Cover, which provides only +2/+1. But that is for stuff like "other people in the line of fire" or "standing upright behind a waste-high wall".
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Ok, fair enough. It still means smoke doesn't negate lasers as seems to be an assertion I've seen many times.
If you do miss doesn't the grenade still drift off the target?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
You are correct. People won't miss hexes very often, but every die has a 1 on it, and the grenade does go off in a slightly random location when they do miss.
Which means if you do miss your target it can still drift in the right direction and still blast your target, if you are lucky.
I don't think its the intent but someobe could read smoke provides cove as a solid object, so = half covered in smoke= cover totally covered in smoke= total cover
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