Proficiency increases should give non-numerical upgrades too

[Pandora's]

This has been mentioned, but I wanted a thread to discuss it specifically and maybe get some developer insight if they have the time.

The developers have shown how, mathematically, a +1 bonus from proficiency is not trivial in this new system. The problem is that while it may be very good, it can be hard to get excited by incremental numerical increases, especially when that upgrade is meant to represent mastery or legendary status.

My suggestion would be to pair simple numerical bonuses from proficiencies with some kind of non-numerical upgrade: either a restriction removed or, preferably, something new you can do. These wouldn't need to be especially powerful, since their purpose is a more satisfying feel rather than raw power. An example idea would be to have Expert spellcasting for Wizards give benefits similar to the Spell Mastery feat from 1st edition; it's a handy ability that represents expertise well but wasn't very attractive to many people as a standalone feat.

This suggestion is particularly important for martial characters. In 1st edition, your saves and base attack bonus were part of the numbers section of your class table. They didn't take up spaces in your special abilities column. In the playtest, they effectively do, since proficiencies have replaced those numerical columns. Many martial classes have many levels where a proficiency increase, a +1 bonus, is their class feature for the level. Receiving only a numerical bonus that feels small, regardless of how effective it actually is, when a party member is pouring over their exciting new spells doesn't feel very good.

I like the proficiency system a lot, I just think it's a bit underused right now and could be tweaked to feel more exciting without throwing off the math.

[Yolande d'Bar]

I agree. Except I think it's more than a bit underused.

I would remove a lot of feats contingent on having a certain rank in a proficiency, and just make them something you get for free when you achieve that proficiency.

Every skill, every kind of armor or class of weapon, every type of saving throw, should get cool unlocks when a new proficiency level is achieved. Not that you can use a feat to take this—you just get it because of your level of proficiency.

Proficiencies have the opportunity to be something COOLER than levels that a character is striving to achieve.

But a slightly bigger number? Yawn.

The proficiency system is ingenious, but not doing much of anything right now.

[Pandora's]

Yeah, that more comprehensive treatment is exactly what I was getting at.

You reminded me that I forgot to use master/legendary saves as an example. I think those are a great example of what a proficiency upgrade should mean, if possibly more powerful than the average proficiency ability would be. I'm honestly a bit confused why that model wasn't integrated into the system as a whole.

[Shaheer-El-Khatib]

It's far (very far) from perfect but here is what I did that for "Religion" when it came up in game :

Untrained :
You can use Recall Knowledge to identify Symbol / Idol / Sacred text of wellknown deities. You also can Recall the basic of their faith (You recall 1 piece about the faith, anathema or eddict. Like knowing Gorum adepts like to fight)

Trained :
You can use Recall Knowledge to identify Symbol / Idol / Sacred Text (even if it's only a small part of the entire text) even of Deities not wellknown (Foreign Deities or Ancien Deities that are forgotten by most people).
You have a fair understanding of the faith of these Deities (you recall all Anathema and Eddict of a deity).

You can Identify Common Undead / Devil / Demon using this skill.

Expert :
You can use Recall Knowledge to remember old legend relying to religion that fade away with time (for exemple, remember that 1500 years ago some heroic Paladin dude died in these mountain and his stuff might still be there. Or how someone defeated a particular demon).
You can tell if a Sacred Text has been altered to change his meaning (Like a bad cleric changing some word in Irori teaching to make people take a wrong path).
You understand not only the faith but you also has a good grasp about the ritual and code of a Religion (I would put "knowing that this Pharasma Statu is typically a trap" in this case. I felt odd that almost anyone could tell that. What the point of a trap is anyone can see it is one like it is written on it ?)

You can Identify Uncommon Undead / Devil / Demon using this skill.

Master :
You know sacred text very well. You can use "Religion" instead of Diplomacy/Intimidation when talking with religious people.

Legendary :
You automatically critical succeed at "Identify" Undead / Devil / Demon using this skill.

.....
Well .... It obviously need to think about it more. It's still fairly bad and unbalanced.

But I will try to add things gated in the Proficiency so that it felt actually better to put a point in it instead of a mere +1 to roll.

[Wolfism]

Increases in saving throw proficiency should definitely unlock the equivalent of evasion/improved evasion without taking up too for other class features.

[Vidmaster7]

I think most feats should have upgrade options based on proficiency. the best example of this is cat fall.

[Fuzzypaws]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I think most feats should have upgrade options based on proficiency. the best example of this is cat fall.

Cat Fall is my benchmark for what a good skill feat should look like.

Evasion etc should definitely be baked into higher save proficiencies.

(A better version of) Assurance should be baked into higher skill proficiencies.

The proficiency modifier should be +2 per step, not +1 per step. Players are struggling just to get basic success at checks and the vaunted crits simply aren't happening, not in my observation, and all of the players have expressed that a +1 feels trivial and doesn't make them feel like they actually got better at all. It's okay if PCs actually get a little better at stuff over time, it really is. Just fix the paradigm of when fighters vs other martials actually get to improve in weapon groups.

[Pandora's]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

(A better version of) Assurance should be baked into higher skill proficiencies.

I've been actively planning for this as my house rule if they don't attach something inherent to skill proficiency. Assurance isn't currently a very attractive feat, but its effects represent higher proficiency really well.

Fuzzypaws wrote:

The proficiency modifier should be +2 per step, not +1 per step. Players are struggling just to get basic success at checks and the vaunted crits simply aren't happening, not in my observation, and all of the players have expressed that a +1 feels trivial and doesn't make them feel like they actually got better at all. It's okay if PCs actually get a little better at stuff over time, it really is. Just fix the paradigm of when fighters vs other martials actually get to improve in weapon groups.

I don't think this is the way to handle it. Increasing the numerical bonuses of proficiency just makes whoever can't get to legendary way behind everyone else. It'd work for skills, I think, but not for saves/attacks/AC. The difference between trained and legendary saves would be that same awkward 6 point gap between good and bad saves in PF1. Even being a single proficiency level behind on attacks would dramatically decrease damage relative to the classes who did get that proficiency.

If successes aren't happening enough, that's because DCs are too high, not because proficiency bonuses are too small.

[master_marshmallow]

Good thread is good

[Edge93]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Good thread is good

+1, this is the kind of discussion I'm looking for on these forums. XD

One idea I had was that one proficiency in weapons (maybe Master?) would let you take a special Strike action, like a 2-action Strike where you can choose your weapon to count as any one material for the purpose of weakness and resistance. Things like that. Maybe for Shields a special free action you can take once every x minutes to prevent your shield from getting a dent when you use Shield block (this could be an Expert ability maybe?).

[Combatbunny]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Good thread is good

Also agree this is a good idea.

[Lycar]

Exactly, the first time I read about the proficiency levels and how they wanted to get away from highly disparate skill bonuses, I was certain that every proficiency level would unlock new skill uses.

And then I actually read the rules and find that this isn't actually the case- that was a HUGE disappointment. It just feels like such a waste of a great opportunity.

Just from the feel of it, if you spend a feat (and in PF2, everything is a feat) on something, you want to get something significant, especially since you only get so many feats ever.

The point is, a +1 to anything just doesn't feel significant, math and grades of success be damned. And you all know what we call a feat that you have to take for the privilege of taking other, actually exciting feats: A tax feat. I was hoping we could bury those and move on.

The point is, if they want to narrow down the range of skill bonuses in play, so that unskilled PCs at least can still play the same game, that is a good thing. But there must be some way to make sure that skilled characters still FEEL different, else there is no point to them.

So yes, new proficiency levels ought to unlock new skill uses. FEATS then inform what kinds of skill uses the character actually focuses at. That is what makes a master anything different from another. Not having skill uses the other doesn't, they are both masters of their skill after all, but being better in different aspects of their skill.

As for feats scaling, that too is a HUGE wasted opportunity if they don't make it happen. So many things that used to be feat chains would be so much better if they were simply contingent on the skill tier of the character. It would also actually make signature skills matter. It's okay for both casters and martials to pick up, say, a combat feat and a general skill feat. But the martial will get more mileage out of the combat feat, simply because he can access the Master and Legendary uses of that feat, while the caster gets to access the Master and Legendary uses of the skill feat.

Tat way, the +2/-2 difference in the numerical skill bonus doesn't matter, it is the skill rank and the things you can do with the skill that does. Everybody can still use the lower-tier aspects of a skill, but the experts and masters and legends can do extra stuff, and with the right feats, do them very well.

Tldr:
If skill bonus is supposed to be tight, make the tiers matter and make feats ADD to that, not a requirement. You already pay a feat-equivalent for your new skill tier after all and taxes are bad.

[StratoNexus]

Perhaps anytime you increase a skill to Expert, Master, or Legendary you should also get a Skill Feat.

I outlined another option to make the Skill proficiencies more attractive in the linked thread (and copied below). The thread also has some options presented by other folks. These are sort of numerical options, but sort of not.
Making the higher proficiency levels have more impact

StratoNexus wrote:

I am still in favor of some way to eliminate the die roll out of combat.

Personally, I would prefer something like below:
Untrained: Level -4, any checks you are allowed to make, you must roll.
Trained: Level+0, Out of combat you can choose to Take 5, rather than roll.
Expert: Level+1, Out of Combat you an choose to Take 10, rather than roll. In combat you must roll, but your minimum roll is a 2 (no autocrat fails due to a 1, although if your roll+your skill modifier is a crit fail then you crit fail).
Master: Level+2, Out of Combat you can take 10 rather than roll. In combat you must roll, but your minimum roll is a 5.
Legendary: Level+3, Out of Combat you can take 15 rather than roll. In combat you must roll, but your minimum roll is an 8.