Does the alchemist get the multiple attack penalty when throwing two bombs in the same round? I ruled it like that last time but the alchemist then felt pretty weak compared to the other classes.
Yes. Bombs are martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet. To throw them, characters use the Strike action, which has the Attack trait and therefore takes the multiple attack penalty.
On the bright side, bombs target Touch AC rather than regular AC. To my understanding, Touch AC is generally two or three points lower than regular AC.
Even so, the posts I've read on these boards (and my attempts to build them, which unfortunately are not informed by play yet) suggest that Alchemists are week, as you say. They need to spend feats to get abilities other classes get for free, such as being able to add an attribute to damage and 'shoot' into melee without damaging their allies. Their offensive and restorative abilities also cost resonance to use. They might have more bombs than an equal-level caster, but those bombs' only advantages over attacks with a level-appropriate weapon are the ability to take advantage of elemental weaknesses and impose conditions on a single target.
Throwing a bomb is an attack, so yes.
While TAC may be lower than AC for some things, it is not nearly a universal. And even if that was true the Alchemist never gets beyond Trained at throwing Bombs so they always roll at +0. So they are not going to be all that accurate at throwing their bombs, with splash damage that does very little. And while yes in the right situations they can throw 2 bombs in a round, while a caster can only use 1 cantrip in a round without some way around the 2 action cost, such as using Fiery Body. The Bombs still are comparable to at will cantrips. Which a lot of people seem to dislike for being too weak.
Thaliak wrote: Yes. Bombs are martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet. Where are they designated as martial weapons? I have been wondering forever if throwing them was considered untrained for anyone other then alchemists and have not been able to find anything in the book about them being a specific weapon category, I would have thought they were exotic ranged.
Nevermind, page 359, last paragraph.
While Alchemists' proficiency with bombs never increases, their empowered bombs grant a +1 item bonus to attack rolls at Level 15 and a +2 item bonus to attack rolls at level 19. Unfortunately, this bonus comes late, and it doesn't stack with the +2 item bonus from Alchemist's Goggles or the bonuses to ranged attacks from Quicksilver Mutagen. Nor does it match the +4 item bonus spellcasters can get to attack rolls with duelist's gloves or wands, or the +5 bonus weapon wielders can get from enhancement runes.
If your GM decides to consider bombs a "fighter weapon group," which seems a bit of a stretch, alchemists can gain Expert proficiency by taking Fighter Dedication before Level 12 and Weapon Expert at Level 12. Uncanny Bombs also allows alchemists to ignore screening, which imposes a -1 circumstance penalty on ranged attacks.
Perhaps Alchemists are meant to be skill monkeys who make up for their lack of skill increases relative to the rogue by preparing a mutagen for every occasion.
Thaliak wrote: While Alchemists' proficiency with bombs never increases, their empowered bombs grant a +1 item bonus to attack rolls at Level 15 and a +2 item bonus to attack rolls at level 19. Unfortunately, this bonus comes late, and it doesn't stack with the +2 item bonus from Alchemist's Goggles or the bonuses to ranged attacks from Quicksilver Mutagen. Nor does it match the +4 item bonus spellcasters can get to attack rolls with duelist's gloves or wands, or the +5 bonus weapon wielders can get from enhancement runes. Just starting GMing Pale Mountain with an an alchemist PC. The alchemist is extremely effective - typically two bombs per round at level 4 each doing substantial damage and debuting on a hit and splash damage on a miss. I'd like a bit more clarity on how resonance interacts with crafting for them and a bit of a resonance buff but hitting isn't a problem in practice. The alchemist is by far the most consistent damage dealer when you figure in debuffs, persistent damage and crits.
I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using?
Did their non bombs have decent hit rates?
cause.. I doubt many bombs are carrid around really. I don't think 2 per round would last very long.
Or I guess.. the alchemist could supply no alchemical tools or widgets and just damage I suppose.
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Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: While Alchemists' proficiency with bombs never increases, their empowered bombs grant a +1 item bonus to attack rolls at Level 15 and a +2 item bonus to attack rolls at level 19. Unfortunately, this bonus comes late, and it doesn't stack with the +2 item bonus from Alchemist's Goggles or the bonuses to ranged attacks from Quicksilver Mutagen. Nor does it match the +4 item bonus spellcasters can get to attack rolls with duelist's gloves or wands, or the +5 bonus weapon wielders can get from enhancement runes. Just starting GMing Pale Mountain with an an alchemist PC. The alchemist is extremely effective - typically two bombs per round at level 4 each doing substantial damage and debuting on a hit and splash damage on a miss. I'd like a bit more clarity on how resonance interacts with crafting for them and a bit of a resonance buff but hitting isn't a problem in practice. The alchemist is by far the most consistent damage dealer when you figure in debuffs, persistent damage and crits. This is interesting but it does make me wonder a few things.
So I am assuming they have 18 Int, so +4 Int mod, +4 for level so 8 Resonance. Assuming they use all of their Resonance at the start of the day they will have 16 bombs, this is not the best of ideas for various reasons but there it is. If they are throwing 2 bombs a round that means they run out for the day after 8 rounds. So after the first 8 rounds of the day, what do they do?
And if they aren't using all of their Resonance at the beginning of the day purely on Bombs then they will have considerably fewer.
So the Alchemist was doing what 2d6 damage at 3rd level, no Int modifier. By 4th level most martial characters will likely have a magical weapon that does at least that much, if not more, while also adding in Str mod to damage. And the martial characters will be able to attack 3 times per round, if they don't have to move. Which means the martial characters should be doing comparable, or better, damage more often than the Alchemist.
Persistent damage is a bit different, but persistent damage is a lot more powerful for enemies than for PCs. And persistent damage of the same type doesn't stack so hitting someone with 2 Acid Flask's doesn't do anything.
As for crafting, if you are not using Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy you use the normal crafting rules. Which do not cost Resonance. But the cost is such that you have to spend a lot of gold, and a really large amount of downtime, to make your bombs. In other words the Alchemist isn't really any better at crafting stuff, for the most part, than anyone else and aren't really going to be using crafted bombs. Especially since their class features, such as the one that increases the damage of bombs, doesn't work on such crafted bombs.
I would be interested in seeing this Alchemist's build and knowing what bombs they use, and how they have been getting through the encounters.
Thaliak wrote: I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using? Bottled lightning for flat footed followed by fire or acid. As well as increasing damage from the other PCs it effectively reduces the MAP. He rolled badly for damage and often did more from splash misses than hits. persistent fire and helped drop at least one foe. He only just realised how good persistent acid damage was ...
Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using? Bottled lightning for flat footed followed by fire or acid. As well as increasing damage from the other PCs it effectively reduces the MAP. He rolled badly for damage and often did more from splash misses than hits. persistent fire and helped drop at least one foe. He only just realised how good persistent acid damage was ... Standard 18 int and 16 Dexter halfling. Doing splash damage on a miss is in practice huge. Anything with a low touch AC was also easily critted. Hope we did the 3rd level bombs right. 2d8 for fire with 2 persistent because the entry in the treasure section does d8 fire not d6. Also splash is 2 plus int for 6 damage with a fourth level feat that I forget the name of.
Tremendous fun - just needs more resonance. Getting something flat footed often makes a huge difference to party damage.
Palinurus wrote: Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using? Bottled lightning for flat footed followed by fire or acid. As well as increasing damage from the other PCs it effectively reduces the MAP. He rolled badly for damage and often did more from splash misses than hits. persistent fire and helped drop at least one foe. He only just realised how good persistent acid damage was ... Standard 18 int and 16 Dexter halfling. Doing splash damage on a miss is in practice huge. Anything with a low touch AC was also easily critted. Hope we did the 3rd level bombs right. 2d8 for fire with 2 persistent because the entry in the treasure section does d8 fire not d6. Also splash is 2 plus int for 6 damage with a fourth level feat that I forget the name of.
Tremendous fun - just needs more resonance. Getting something flat footed often makes a huge difference to party damage. 2+int splash is a level 10 feat, not level 4. Level 4 is plain +int INSTEAD of whatever splash the bomb has naturally
...so he does about a +1 longsword level of damage
(longsword is 2d8+4 on a str character, bombs with bomb feats is 2d8+4 on an int based character), with lower attack (just +7), having to avoid splash hitting allies (since he didn't pick precise bomb) and he can do that max 16times/day in place of ALL other abilities he may have (after the 16 bombs he's a commoner)
yeah, sounds sooo strong... i mean, that's a fighter, without feats, that hits only 16 attacks/day...
Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using? Bottled lightning for flat footed followed by fire or acid. As well as increasing damage from the other PCs it effectively reduces the MAP. He rolled badly for damage and often did more from splash misses than hits. persistent fire and helped drop at least one foe. He only just realised how good persistent acid damage was ... I figured Bottled Lightning would be the opener! I'm glad the Flat-Footed condition is proving useful. Since Flanking, the Daze cantrip and tripping impose Flat-Footed as well, I was worried it would be so common that the effect from Bottled Lightning would be redundant.
I was hoping you'd say something about Liquid Ice. Hampered 10 seems like a weak condition to me unless you're trying to catch someone who is running away, especially given Liquid Ice's lower damage. But I haven't played the game yet, so all I can do is theorycraft.
The fourth level feat you're thinking of is Calculated Splash. As Shroudb mentioned, it lets the Alchemist set an empowered bomb's splash damage to his Intelligence modifier. Empowered bomb itself has no effect on Splash damage, so by default, a third-level Alchemist's Fire would do 2d8 damage and 1 splash damage, or 2d8 and 4 splash damage with Calculated Splash and 18 Intelligence.
Liquid ice isn't horrible vs big heavy armour users. But tanglefoot feels like it's always a better choice
Liquid ice and Alich fire i just cannot justify the to cost vs other choices
Honestly no enemy should ever take Alich fire persistent damage more than once. No Roll to fix that persistent damage after all. Just one action.
Decent looking burst I guess. But unless elemental weak resist situation is rather have a lightning bottle. Damage diff is negligible.
I suppose if you do nothing but bombs you'll have a Decent amount. But I love the tools too much i guess.
Ryuujin-sama wrote: Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: While Alchemists' proficiency with bombs never increases, their empowered bombs grant a +1 item bonus to attack rolls at Level 15 and a +2 item bonus to attack rolls at level 19. Unfortunately, this bonus comes late, and it doesn't stack with the +2 item bonus from Alchemist's Goggles or the bonuses to ranged attacks from Quicksilver Mutagen. Nor does it match the +4 item bonus spellcasters can get to attack rolls with duelist's gloves or wands, or the +5 bonus weapon wielders can get from enhancement runes. Just starting GMing Pale Mountain with an an alchemist PC. The alchemist is extremely effective - typically two bombs per round at level 4 each doing substantial damage and debuting on a hit and splash damage on a miss. I'd like a bit more clarity on how resonance interacts with crafting for them and a bit of a resonance buff but hitting isn't a problem in practice. The alchemist is by far the most consistent damage dealer when you figure in debuffs, persistent damage and crits. This is interesting but it does make me wonder a few things.
So I am assuming they have 18 Int, so +4 Int mod, +4 for level so 8 Resonance. Assuming they use all of their Resonance at the start of the day they will have 16 bombs, this is not the best of ideas for various reasons but there it is. If they are throwing 2 bombs a round that means they run out for the day after 8 rounds. So after the first 8 rounds of the day, what do they do?
And if they aren't using all of their Resonance at the beginning of the day purely on Bombs then they will have considerably fewer.
So the Alchemist was doing what 2d6 damage at 3rd level, no Int modifier. By 4th level most martial characters will likely have a magical weapon that does at least that much, if not more, while also adding in Str mod to damage. And the martial characters will be able to attack 3 times per round, if they don't have to move. Which means the martial characters should be doing comparable, or... Just finished the first three encounters in this section. I only had 10 bombs made out of my 16 max items a day. Halfway through the third encounter I was out of bombs. With at least 2 people in the party (plus an animal companion) wanting to get into melee I was often unable to throw a bomb if I didn't want to hit my friends for splash for almost as much as the bomb itself did. And I missed almost 30% of those attacks, admittedly bad rolls. The monk and fighter did so much more damage then I did it wasn't even funny, even without magic weapons since they get to add str to damage. The monk was scouting ahead by himself since his 50 move let him stealth without slowing down the party, making my stealth useless. Even had to make a flat 11 roll just to invest my armor for the day. I knew alchemists had problems going in but this is feeling really bad. The bard was doing more damage then I was, and had greater benefit to the party with his inspire cantrip.
shroudb wrote: Palinurus wrote: Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using? Bottled lightning for flat footed followed by fire or acid. As well as increasing damage from the other PCs it effectively reduces the MAP. He rolled badly for damage and often did more from splash misses than hits. persistent fire and helped drop at least one foe. He only just realised how good persistent acid damage was ... Standard 18 int and 16 Dexter halfling. Doing splash damage on a miss is in practice huge. Anything with a low touch AC was also easily critted. Hope we did the 3rd level bombs right. 2d8 for fire with 2 persistent because the entry in the treasure section does d8 fire not d6. Also splash is 2 plus int for 6 damage with a fourth level feat that I forget the name of.
Tremendous fun - just needs more resonance. Getting something flat footed often makes a huge difference to party damage. 2+int splash is a level 10 feat, not level 4. Level 4 is plain +int INSTEAD of whatever splash the bomb has naturally
...so he does about a +1 longsword level of damage
(longsword is 2d8+4 on a str character, bombs with bomb feats is 2d8+4 on an int based character), with lower attack (just +7), having to avoid splash hitting allies (since he didn't pick precise bomb) and he can do that max 16times/day in place of ALL other abilities he may have (after the 16 bombs he's a commoner)
yeah, sounds sooo strong... i mean, that's a fighter, without feats, that hits only 16 attacks/day...
Looks like we got the splash damage wrong at 6 rather than 5. In practice we have found this very effective. Not played a fighter yet - they look likely the strongest damage dealers. However our experience suggests an alchemist is very effective with damage on a miss, debuff and cries against touch. Not yet had a problem with splash damage on allies - but that is half the fun so far in terms of movement, tactics and positioning. Anything flat footed for a round tends to go down quick. Also at this level we have one magic weapon in the party - so delivering damage at +1 weapon level is huge. My play test feedback will include the resonance issue - but the basic alchemist experience seems fine. Crafting needs some tweaks also.
I have GM experience with PF 1 alchemists also. generally well balanced but could completely trivialise some encounters such as golems.
Thaliak wrote: Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: I'm glad to hear accuracy isn't as much an issue in practice as it appears to be in theory. What debuffs is your player using? Bottled lightning for flat footed followed by fire or acid. As well as increasing damage from the other PCs it effectively reduces the MAP. He rolled badly for damage and often did more from splash misses than hits. persistent fire and helped drop at least one foe. He only just realised how good persistent acid damage was ... I figured Bottled Lightning would be the opener! I'm glad the Flat-Footed condition is proving useful. Since Flanking, the Daze cantrip and tripping impose Flat-Footed as well, I was worried it would be so common that the effect from Bottled Lightning would be redundant.
I was hoping you'd say something about Liquid Ice. Hampered 10 seems like a weak condition to me unless you're trying to catch someone who is running away, especially given Liquid Ice's lower damage. But I haven't played the game yet, so all I can do is theorycraft.
The fourth level feat you're thinking of is Calculated Splash. As Shroudb mentioned, it lets the Alchemist set an empowered bomb's splash damage to his Intelligence modifier. Empowered bomb itself has no effect on Splash damage, so by default, a third-level Alchemist's Fire would do 2d8 damage and 1 splash damage, or 2d8 and 4 splash damage with Calculated Splash and 18 Intelligence. Looks like we got that wrong. the text says says extra damage minimum 0 so I assumed int damage is additional - so 1 + 4 = 5 rather than the 6 we used.
Joey Cote wrote: Ryuujin-sama wrote: Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: While Alchemists' proficiency with bombs never increases, their empowered bombs grant a +1 item bonus to attack rolls at Level 15 and a +2 item bonus to attack rolls at level 19. Unfortunately, this bonus comes late, and it doesn't stack with the +2 item bonus from Alchemist's Goggles or the bonuses to ranged attacks from Quicksilver Mutagen. Nor does it match the +4 item bonus spellcasters can get to attack rolls with duelist's gloves or wands, or the +5 bonus weapon wielders can get from enhancement runes. Just starting GMing Pale Mountain with an an alchemist PC. The alchemist is extremely effective - typically two bombs per round at level 4 each doing substantial damage and debuting on a hit and splash damage on a miss. I'd like a bit more clarity on how resonance interacts with crafting for them and a bit of a resonance buff but hitting isn't a problem in practice. The alchemist is by far the most consistent damage dealer when you figure in debuffs, persistent damage and crits. This is interesting but it does make me wonder a few things.
So I am assuming they have 18 Int, so +4 Int mod, +4 for level so 8 Resonance. Assuming they use all of their Resonance at the start of the day they will have 16 bombs, this is not the best of ideas for various reasons but there it is. If they are throwing 2 bombs a round that means they run out for the day after 8 rounds. So after the first 8 rounds of the day, what do they do?
And if they aren't using all of their Resonance at the beginning of the day purely on Bombs then they will have considerably fewer.
So the Alchemist was doing what 2d6 damage at 3rd level, no Int modifier. By 4th level most martial characters will likely have a magical weapon that does at least that much, if not more, while also adding in Str mod to damage. And the martial characters will be able to attack 3 times per round, if they don't have to move. Which means the martial characters ... Yes - resonance is an issue. Martial shouldn’t have +1 weapons until 5th (not routinely). Martials miss a lot. Generally you want to move, raise shield or do something tactical with the third action. Getting people flat footed to all targets is huge. Free damage like splash on a miss or persistent is also hugely effective at the levels we have played. My players may be unusual as they pick up on tactical options very quick, but they really liked having options other than full attack or charge.
Also forgot - alchemist has remarkable resonance - so 10 points - another clue that resonance is a bit low. Typically preparing 10-12 bombs per day with 4 or 5 in the locker for quick alchemy.
Palinurus wrote: Joey Cote wrote: Ryuujin-sama wrote: Palinurus wrote: Thaliak wrote: While Alchemists' proficiency with bombs never increases, their empowered bombs grant a +1 item bonus to attack rolls at Level 15 and a +2 item bonus to attack rolls at level 19. Unfortunately, this bonus comes late, and it doesn't stack with the +2 item bonus from Alchemist's Goggles or the bonuses to ranged attacks from Quicksilver Mutagen. Nor does it match the +4 item bonus spellcasters can get to attack rolls with duelist's gloves or wands, or the +5 bonus weapon wielders can get from enhancement runes. Just starting GMing Pale Mountain with an an alchemist PC. The alchemist is extremely effective - typically two bombs per round at level 4 each doing substantial damage and debuting on a hit and splash damage on a miss. I'd like a bit more clarity on how resonance interacts with crafting for them and a bit of a resonance buff but hitting isn't a problem in practice. The alchemist is by far the most consistent damage dealer when you figure in debuffs, persistent damage and crits. This is interesting but it does make me wonder a few things.
So I am assuming they have 18 Int, so +4 Int mod, +4 for level so 8 Resonance. Assuming they use all of their Resonance at the start of the day they will have 16 bombs, this is not the best of ideas for various reasons but there it is. If they are throwing 2 bombs a round that means they run out for the day after 8 rounds. So after the first 8 rounds of the day, what do they do?
And if they aren't using all of their Resonance at the beginning of the day purely on Bombs then they will have considerably fewer.
So the Alchemist was doing what 2d6 damage at 3rd level, no Int modifier. By 4th level most martial characters will likely have a magical weapon that does at least that much, if not more, while also adding in Str mod to damage. And the martial characters will be able to attack 3 times per round, if they don't have to move. Which means ... a party of 4 people should have at least 2 +1 weapons by level 4 if you're going by normal wealth.
given that at least 1 person in a party of 4 is on average a caster, it's not unreasonable for all the martials of a level 4 party to have +1 weapons and +1 armor (+1 armor is at level 3)
that's why I say that a level 4 alchemist has 16 times per day (and that's in expense of EVERYTHING else) what a normal martial has at will
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Well, an alchemist can also use a +1 weapon for that matter. Not as effective as a full blown martial, but it ain't nothing. And Elf Alchemist with weapon familiarity strikes me as having some decent dex weapon potential. Longbow at long range, bombs at mid, rapier when it turns to close. Using poison to further buff a magic weapon might be more effective than bombs actually, though I think it is weird how a poison stays until your next strike with it but then is lost the instant you miss.
My current read on the Alchemist is that it excels at having a utility belt. Bombs aren't absurdly strong as their raw damage numbers, but they are really good for triggering weaknesses, especially with persistent damage. Or hell, on demand AoE for swarms.
And while you get more items per resonance point by daily preparation, Quick Preparation is really nifty for all that super niche stuff. Imagine if a wizard could spontaneously access every spell in their spell book mid-fight 10 times a day or whatever. Yeah, alchemical items don't seem as strong as spells, but there's definitely some goodies in there. Someone gets poisoned? Pop out an antidote. Realize you are gonna need dark vision to get the drop on someone? We got an elixir for that. I also recently discovered the silvertongue mutagen is one of the earliest ways to get an item bonus to diplomacy, for example.
I dunno, I don't have a ton of data yet. Their resonance pool does seem to be stretched pretty thin, but they've certainly got some cool tricks they can pull with it.
Well remember the target of the attack probably doesn't take Splash damage when they are hit, so it wouldn't be 2d8+Int. Also I don't think Bottled Lightning's Flat-Footed is given on the Splash damage, since it mentions target so that probably only effects the target of the bomb on a success/critical success.
Ryuujin-sama wrote: Well remember the target of the attack probably doesn't take Splash damage when they are hit, so it wouldn't be 2d8+Int. Also I don't think Bottled Lightning's Flat-Footed is given on the Splash damage, since it mentions target so that probably only effects the target of the bomb on a success/critical success. Yes - that is how we read it too. A previous poster mentioned persistent damage being easy to remove. We have found the DC 20 flat check reducing to DC 15 with an action pretty hard to reach.
Yeah Persistent Damage on a PC is dangerous, it is hard to remove. Persistent Damage on an enemy is not as good, yes it is nice consistent damage unless they manage to remove it, which again isn't easy, but it also means that you can't really hit them with the same type of persistent damage.
Ryuujin-sama wrote: Well remember the target of the attack probably doesn't take Splash damage when they are hit, so it wouldn't be 2d8+Int. Also I don't think Bottled Lightning's Flat-Footed is given on the Splash damage, since it mentions target so that probably only effects the target of the bomb on a success/critical success. Despite the weird failure line.. Splash trait, and the examples in the book show that the main target does take splash (as did example plays on Twitch/at the cons) (any associated debuff or effect are indeed on the main target only)
Palinurus wrote:
Yes - that is how we read it too. A previous poster mentioned persistent damage being easy to remove. We have found the DC 20 flat check reducing to DC 15 with an action pretty hard to reach.
I assume that poster would be talkinga bout Alchemist's Fire.
Which is removed via 1 action, no check required. Any other persistent damage is pretty difficult to remove. (sans things like submerging in water, or healing to full for bleed. etc)
Zwordsman wrote: I assume that poster would be talkinga bout Alchemist's Fire. Which is removed via 1 action, no check required. Wow, so it is. How did we miss that the other night?
_
glass.
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