Quote: Flying Kick
Monk Class Feat 4
Traits: Monk
Two Actions
Frequency: Once per round.
Make a Leap or attempt a Long Jump. At the end of the jump, if you’re adjacent to a foe, you can immediately Strike that foe.
So I'm curious about how this interacts with Quick Jump.
Quote: Quick Jump
Feat 1
Traits: General, Skill
Prerequisites: trained in Athletics
You can use High Jump and Long Jump as a single action instead of 2 actions. If you do, you don't perform the initial Stride, and you don't need to have moved 10 feet.
Since the Flying Kick Ability seems to be a specific action which tells the PC to use an "Activity" which NORMALLY takes 2 Actions, I'm not sure if Quick Jump will reduce the Actions required to use Flying Kick it to 1 Action.
Thoughts?
Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
As I understand it, Flying Kick would not benefit from Quick Jump. Flying Kick has a specific cost of 2 actions. Quick Jump doesn't mention Flying Kick becoming cheaper so it doesn't.
And because of that there really isn't a reason to even mention Leap on Flying Kick because it's the exact same as taking 1 action to Leap and 1 action to Attack. So really Flying Kick is only meaningful with Long Jump.
So the benefit here seems to be the ability to attack foew that are flying or on much higher ground because the attack resolves before the PC begins to fall from the High Jump.
Interesting.
in other words, just get Ki Strike so that you can then get Wind Jump instead, an outright superior option to mundane jumping, which once you reach master proficiency level in Athletics with the Assurance feat, becomes outright flight, 100% no checks needed.
Themetricsystem wrote: So the benefit here seems to be the ability to attack foew that are flying or on much higher ground because the attack resolves before the PC begins to fall from the High Jump.
Interesting.
And extra movement.
Long jump is stride+jump (hence why it's 2 actions)
Flying kick is either a jump or a long jump followed by a strike.
So, for 2 actions you stride, jump, strike.
For your original question:
There IS benefit taking quick jump:
In order to benefit from long jump you need at least 10feet movement prior to the athletics.
So, if you're pressed for space and can't do that (flying kick someone at the other side of a pit and your adjustcent to the pit as an example, or cornered and etc) you can "flying kick" using the long jump distance even without moving 10ft first.
In effect, if you take Quick jump, you may as well change Flying kick from "jump or long jump+strike" to "long jump+strike" since there's no longer a reason to just jump.
In addition, you also get to ignore difficult terrain for the jump portion and jump over obstacles.
In the end of the day, you can flying kick an enemy that's much more than 1 stride away and Flurry him, getting something like 60+ movement and 3 attacks in a round (level 4 character with starting speed 30 is at a minimum of 55ft + 3 attacks).
Vahnyu wrote: in other words, just get Ki Strike so that you can then get Wind Jump instead, an outright superior option to mundane jumping, which once you reach master proficiency level in Athletics with the Assurance feat, becomes outright flight, 100% no checks needed. They are fundamentally different. One gives "flying" as long as you land each turn. The other gives extra distance covered as long as you combine both a stride and a jump.
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shroudb wrote: Themetricsystem wrote: So the benefit here seems to be the ability to attack foew that are flying or on much higher ground because the attack resolves before the PC begins to fall from the High Jump.
Interesting.
And extra movement.
Long jump is stride+jump (hence why it's 2 actions)
Flying kick is either a jump or a long jump followed by a strike.
So, for 2 actions you stride, jump, strike.
For your original question:
There IS benefit taking quick jump:
In order to benefit from long jump you need at least 10feet movement prior to the athletics.
So, if you're pressed for space and can't do that (flying kick someone at the other side of a pit and your adjustcent to the pit as an example, or cornered and etc) you can "flying kick" using the long jump distance even without moving 10ft first.
In effect, if you take Quick jump, you may as well change Flying kick from "jump or long jump+strike" to "long jump+strike" since there's no longer a reason to just jump.
In addition, you also get to ignore difficult terrain for the jump portion and jump over obstacles.
In the end of the day, you can flying kick an enemy that's much more than 1 stride away and Flurry him, getting something like 60+ movement and 3 attacks in a round (level 4 character with starting speed 30 is at a minimum of 55ft + 3 attacks). The thing is, Flying Kick is completely useless and a waste of a feat if you can have Quick Jump instead. The only reason to ever get Flying Kick is for the action economy as you said yourself. But Quick Jump already gives you the action discount, plus it gives you the option to do something else other than attack after the 1 action for the long jump. And on top of that, it also gives you the advantage of not needing to stride before the long jump.
Also, Quick Jump lets you attack the foe first and then long jump away from it, which is also something Flying Kick cant do, giving you much more hit & run potential. Long jump to foe => Flurry => long jump away etc.
So you are wasting a class feat for something a general feat does better in every way. How is Flying Kick ever worth it?
Subutai1 wrote: shroudb wrote: Themetricsystem wrote: So the benefit here seems to be the ability to attack foew that are flying or on much higher ground because the attack resolves before the PC begins to fall from the High Jump.
Interesting.
And extra movement.
Long jump is stride+jump (hence why it's 2 actions)
Flying kick is either a jump or a long jump followed by a strike.
So, for 2 actions you stride, jump, strike.
For your original question:
There IS benefit taking quick jump:
In order to benefit from long jump you need at least 10feet movement prior to the athletics.
So, if you're pressed for space and can't do that (flying kick someone at the other side of a pit and your adjustcent to the pit as an example, or cornered and etc) you can "flying kick" using the long jump distance even without moving 10ft first.
In effect, if you take Quick jump, you may as well change Flying kick from "jump or long jump+strike" to "long jump+strike" since there's no longer a reason to just jump.
In addition, you also get to ignore difficult terrain for the jump portion and jump over obstacles.
In the end of the day, you can flying kick an enemy that's much more than 1 stride away and Flurry him, getting something like 60+ movement and 3 attacks in a round (level 4 character with starting speed 30 is at a minimum of 55ft + 3 attacks). The thing is, Flying Kick is completely useless and a waste of a feat if you can have Quick Jump instead. The only reason to ever get Flying Kick is for the action economy as you said yourself. But Quick Jump already gives you the action discount, plus it gives you the option to do something else other than attack after the 1 action for the long jump. And on top of that, it also gives you the advantage of not needing to stride before the long jump.
Also, Quick Jump lets you attack the foe first and then long jump away from it, which is also something Flying Kick cant do, giving you much more hit & run potential. Long jump to... no, you're completely wrong.
Quick jump doesn't give you a "free" stride.
It allows you to long jump WITHOUT using stride.
Flying kick is 1 free jump/turn basically.
2 actions for 3 actions, 1 stride, 1 jump, 1 strike.
Quick jump+strike is 2 actions for 2 actions. At level 4 that you get flying kick, that's 35-40 ft of movement lost/round, which is massive.
In fact, Flying kick is an amazing Action economy saver, adding free movement before your strike, allowing, as I indicated at minimum 50-55ft of movement and full attack.
On the flipside, quickjump+strike, is about 15-20feet+strike. for the same amount of actions.
Given the 1/turn limit on Flying Kick, I'd REALLY love if I could:
Action 1) Flying Kick -Roll Athletics for Distance (Up to max Movement Speed) & get and Immediate Strike -0
Action 2) Flurry of Blows Strike -4/-8
Action 3) Stride/Move away
But that's just me, I don't personally think this is too OP given the PC needs to be at LEAST level 4 to accomplish this. (Right?)
shroudb wrote: Vahnyu wrote: in other words, just get Ki Strike so that you can then get Wind Jump instead, an outright superior option to mundane jumping, which once you reach master proficiency level in Athletics with the Assurance feat, becomes outright flight, 100% no checks needed. They are fundamentally different. One gives "flying" as long as you land each turn. The other gives extra distance covered as long as you combine both a stride and a jump. You get Wind Jump at 10th level. At 12th, you can attempt a DC30 Athletics check to remain afloat, rather than need to land. At 15th level, you can become Legendary in Athletics. Having gotten the Assurance feat for your Athletics, allows at that point to take 30, rather than roll and add your athletics skill bonus. Which means that the "flight" granted to you from Wind Step, becomes flight. No quotation marks required. You can't fail the check. You can't even critically fail, as you no longer roll. Plus, it's at your speed.
By comparison, Long Jump's bonus to your movement only enters if you need an extra +20 to +40(and risk getting prone, +30feet max safe distance, with Assurance and Crane Style at level 15) movement to reach an enemy that you can't with simply striding twice(as the class with the highest base speed). At a 35 to 60ft base speed, encountering a situation where you'd need that extra boost in movement should be a real accomplishment
And of course, there's absolutely no contest on the vertical axis. Wind Jump trounces Jump kick and any other mundane jump, even without the Assurance Feat
Vahnyu wrote: shroudb wrote: Vahnyu wrote: in other words, just get Ki Strike so that you can then get Wind Jump instead, an outright superior option to mundane jumping, which once you reach master proficiency level in Athletics with the Assurance feat, becomes outright flight, 100% no checks needed. They are fundamentally different. One gives "flying" as long as you land each turn. The other gives extra distance covered as long as you combine both a stride and a jump. You get Wind Jump at 10th level. At 12th, you can attempt a DC30 Athletics check to remain afloat, rather than need to land. At 15th level, you can become Legendary in Athletics. Having gotten the Assurance feat for your Athletics, allows at that point to take 30, rather than roll and add your athletics skill bonus. Which means that the "flight" granted to you from Wind Step, becomes flight. No quotation marks required. You can't fail the check. You can't even critically fail, as you no longer roll. Plus, it's at your speed.
By comparison, Long Jump's bonus to your movement only enters if you need an extra +20 to +40(and risk getting prone, +30feet max safe distance, with Assurance and Crane Style at level 15) movement to reach an enemy that you can't with simply striding twice(as the class with the highest base speed). At a 35 to 60ft base speed, encountering a situation where you'd need that extra boost in movement should be a real accomplishment
And of course, there's absolutely no contest on the vertical axis. Wind Jump trounces Jump kick and any other mundane jump, even without the Assurance Feat yes, i don't argue that at all. Wind jump is an amazing power.
but it's still is fundamentally different than flying kick in what they accomplish.
wind jump grants you flight. Flying kick gives you effectively free 20-30ft movement/round.
they do different things and serve different purpose.
only if you also wish to attack on said round. which, again, at a 35-to-60ft per Stride, should be absolutely no problem for any monk to accomplish by simply Striding twice. Maybe it's occasionally useful at lower levels, when striding twice nets you less than 80ft but at higher levels, it really shouldn't be an issue. Plus, as written, it's not FoB compatible, and the higher level the monk is, the less reason he ever has to not FoB someone at his highest attack bonus.
Given that what FK accomplishes, recquiring a Class Feat, which is a limited resource, is highly situational, it is highly fair to mention that Wind Jump, which accomplishes similar things to Flying Kick (helps with difficult terrain, allows you to get to out of reach enemies), but does so much better, is a more appealing choice overall.
Vahnyu wrote: only if you also wish to attack on said round. which, again, at a 35-to-60ft per Stride, should be absolutely no problem for any monk to accomplish by simply Striding twice. Maybe it's occasionally useful at lower levels, when striding twice nets you less than 80ft but at higher levels, it really shouldn't be an issue. Plus, as written, it's not FoB compatible, and the higher level the monk is, the less reason he ever has to not FoB someone at his highest attack bonus.
Given that what FK accomplishes, recquiring a Class Feat, which is a limited resource, is highly situational, it is highly fair to mention that Wind Jump, which accomplishes similar things to Flying Kick (helps with difficult terrain, allows you to get to out of reach enemies), but does so much better, is a more appealing choice overall.
move fob attack is 3 actions for a stride and 3 attacks at 0/-4/-8
flying kick fob is 3 actions for a stride a jump and 3 attacks at 0/-4/-8
it is a class feat that adds a free jump action whenever you would have to make both a move and an attack in the same round.l
for a level 4 class feat, it's really good, especially for smaller/slower movement races.
it's not broken powerful, or something you'll build around, just a solid, good option to take if you want more free mobility on a monk.
shroudb wrote: Vahnyu wrote: only if you also wish to attack on said round. which, again, at a 35-to-60ft per Stride, should be absolutely no problem for any monk to accomplish by simply Striding twice. Maybe it's occasionally useful at lower levels, when striding twice nets you less than 80ft but at higher levels, it really shouldn't be an issue. Plus, as written, it's not FoB compatible, and the higher level the monk is, the less reason he ever has to not FoB someone at his highest attack bonus.
Given that what FK accomplishes, recquiring a Class Feat, which is a limited resource, is highly situational, it is highly fair to mention that Wind Jump, which accomplishes similar things to Flying Kick (helps with difficult terrain, allows you to get to out of reach enemies), but does so much better, is a more appealing choice overall.
move fob attack is 3 actions for a stride and 3 attacks at 0/-4/-8
flying kick fob is 3 actions for a stride a jump and 3 attacks at 0/-4/-8
it is a class feat that adds a free jump action whenever you would have to make both a move and an attack in the same round.l
for a level 4 class feat, it's really good, especially for smaller/slower movement races.
it's not broken powerful, or something you'll build around, just a solid, good option to take if you want more free mobility on a monk. the chances of doing anything of worth with the third attack at -8 is abysmal
FoB benefits greatly from both hits landing (0, -4), not only in terms of overcoming resistance/dr, but from level 9 on, your damage die is increased one step as well, if both hits land.
That 3d8+4 + 3d8+4 will become 3d10+4 + 3d10+4. And if any of those crit, hooo boy
hitting on a (-4, -8) is very bad, unlikely to yield as good results as (0, -4), unless it's a lower leveled foe, in which case, why even bother? If you've a fair chance of hitting someone at -8, chances are you can take your time dispatching them, without needing to do so at the swiftest time possible.
So is the argument that Move > Move > Flurry (+0,-4) is better than Move > Move > Strike (+0) > Flurry (-4,-8)? If so I'm rather curious to see if DPR calculations bear that out. They might very well with Fierce Flurry, although that doesn't kick in until 9th level, and you can always retrain Flying Kick at that point or when you get wind jump or whatever.
Resistance strikes me as a bit of a non-issue. It is supposed to be rarer than it was in PF1, and monks already look rather good at dealing with it as is. Plus, flurry also means you can only trigger weakness once, which can be bad in some contexts.
Flying Kick is two action to use.
Assurance gives the listed result, it does not replace the dice roll.
You are better off taking powerful leap if you have a speed of 30 or more. At least at low levels. At higher levels I could see retraining Powerful leap to quick jump.
1. Leap is one action.
2. Powerful leap increase distance by 5ft.
3. You spend one action to jump 15 or 20 feet depending on speed. No check.
1. Long jump is two actions.
2. Quick jump decrease a Long jump to one action.
3. You spend one action to jump 10 feet with a DC15 athletics check,
4. You spend one action to jump 15 feet with a DC20 athletics check,
5. You spend one action to jump 20 feet with a DC25 athletics check,
6. You spend one action to jump 25 feet with a DC30 athletics check,
7. You spend one action to jump 30 feet with a DC35 athletics check,
8. You spend one action to jump 35 feet with a DC40 athletics check.
The higher your Athletics the better Quick jump is, but you need a very high athletics bonus to hit the higher DCs.
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Quick Jump decreases Long Jump to one action, but it forgoes the Stride which is normally part of Long Jump.
Long Jump distance moved = Stride + horizontal leap
Quick Jump distance moded = horizontal leap
Flying Kick distance moved = Stride + horizontal leap
If your aim is to move as far as possible and then attack, Flying Kick is your best bet, if and only if you need Stride + horizontal leap to reach the target, and only have 2 actions left for the round.
Otherwise, might as well just move normally, and FoB to get the most bang for your buck.
As for Assurance, it doesn't replace the d20, but it DOES replace the skill roll+bonus, if you so chose to use it, which means that you forgo rolling a d20 (and chancing a critical failure), in order to instead "Assure" that you get the listed result. At Legendary proficiency, the listed result is 30, which means you auto-pass any DC30 check with that particular skill. That's +25 feet movement guaranteed with Long Jump/Flying Kick, on top of the monk's base Stride. +30 feet, if you're in Crane Stance.
Really though, with the 1 a turn rule Flying Kick should allow the Quick Jump Action reduction... at least with the rule of cool :(
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