For the Goblins;).
Doomsday Dawn: The Lost Star
So after a 2 hour session 0 did not go so well we spent an additional 10-15 hours going through the rule book figuring things out and making up some preconstructed PCs for the players to use. Decided to try The Lost Star level 1 adventure in Doomsday Dawn.
Also i the process of writing a cheat sheet for player hand outs. After testing note to self add in firing into melee modifiers (if any) and spell DC's.
So casting summon yobbos and play these PCs for us the party wandered off hot joining the adventure under the sewers of Magnimar last used in 2014 for the great Magnimar Yacht Race for 5E. The brace suckers erm heroes had this for a party composition.
Sword and board half elf fighter with power attack
Goblin Rogue using a dogslicer
Human cleric of Sarenrae
Human Bard
Seeing the 3 round structure thing in action was quite interesting, players would often go for a 2nd attack at -5 (often -2 or 3 due to flanking, agile and/or bard buffing), and getting a connecting 2nd attack in is not rare. Buffs,flanking, flat footed and touch ACs. 2 attacks at -10 almost connected missing by 1 (-10 may have been more like -6 or so but Drakus missed by 1 with a 3rd attack).
After playing 5E for a while there was a few things I missed ffom previous editions (2E-4E. Bonuses to hit via flanking being one, 5E has it as an optional rule but it grants advantage and is to swingy +2 feels about right.
I did miss Fort/Ref/Will from 3E just not the implementation of it. Defenses scale kind of like 4E and Star Wars Saga but numbers are smaller and there is a lot less variance in high and low numbers which I think is great. Monsters have similar hp to 5E ones but more to hit but generally deal less damage but the large to hit numbers enable critical success and s AC 14 or so that can be very dangerous to a PCs. PF2 characters have more HP and more healing available via a cleric than a 5E character but a lot less non magical healing.
Combat flowed fairly well maybe not quite as fast as 5E but close and you do have a few more numbers to add up but a lot less than 3.X. Did not bog down to much (had to check some rules on occasion)
Reminds me a bit of 4E but with the things I did not like about 4E (classes, AEDU healing surges ripped out) and more traditional type classes plugged in. It runs a bit more like BECMI Rules Cyclopedia or 2E AD&D with some optional rules ebing used. Power level is a bit higher than 5E at level 1. A level 1 PF2 class is perhaps like a level 3 AD&D 2E character with a kit and using the weapon speed rules except PF2 weapons have traits instead of weapon speed.
With agile weapons and flanking Rogues in effect can get the 2nd attack penalty down to -2 and it seems they can sneak attack multiple times as well and that was useful but not 100% sure that was correct.
Obviously PF2 has more moving parts than say 5E, but in play it was not that complicated. Kind of reminds me of some B/X clones which have added a few options as well such as Adventurer Conquer King or maybe Castles and Crusades with optional "feats" used. And better math. Perhaps early 3.0 when we played it like AD&D 2E with more bells and whistles (before we figured out how to stack numbers, use haste and stack buffs).
The negatives are mostly the actual rules. If 5E was designed as a greatest hits D&D, pF2 is more of a greatest dud collection to read. it has the uselessness of the 5E index, the dryness of 5E, the complexity of 3E (read page 291 for an example), and the organisational mess of OD&D/1E AD&D without the charming cartoons and random harlots table. With 5E we more or less grabbed the starter set and were playing within an hour or so, PHB landed no big deal it was mostly more options. PF2 failed session 0 2 hours, 1-3 hours over the next few nights and a 5 and 3-4 hour session hammering things out. And even then I made a few mistakes in running it no big deal its new I remember a few I made with 5E, 3.0, Pathfinder etc it happens.
Things I liked over 5E.
1. Defenses scale better. 5E saves an be annoying and even ACs as you can get hit a lot at higher levels.
2. Less whack a mole type issues.
3. Weapons are a lot more interesitng with the best parts of 3E and 4E but without the orcket tag X3 and other confirming a threat range.
4. 3 saves are simpler than 6. Less variance between good and bad saves (basically 1-2 points+ ability and other modifiers).
5. Flanking- enables basic tactics and rewards you due to critical success.
6. Critical success/failure. Might be a bit rocket tag later on though (flunking a fireball save).
7. The 3 round system. Was not to enthused at 1st but its starting to grow on me. Making a 2nd attack at -5 is better than no second attack in 5E. 5E handles TWF better and might handle better at higher levels though as they warrior types get 2nd and 3rd attacks built in at no penalty., more testing required. Not a fan of the way shields work. Complicated, ties up a fighters reaction, heavy incentive to just use a bigger weapon.
8. Dex is a super stat in 5E, add feats in and dex becomes to uber for ranged attacks, skills etc. Dex to damage as a class ability is nice along with free weapon finesse on the right weapons. Nice hybrid between 5E and 3.X might be better than both.
9. Smoother transition to level 2. Level 1 in 5E can really go pear shaped.at low levels.
10. Basic monsters deal more traditional levels of damage. 5E Hobgoblins, Kobolds, Bugbears, Orcs and Gnolls can easily go pear shaped at low levels in 5E (Hobgoblin critical hit potentially 2d8+4d6+1 CR 1/2 critter).
Overall impression. I enjoyed it as a DM and can see several combos I would like to try in the player seat. Rules need a clean up and simplification though (see pg 291, 5 pages of conditions, Fighter is 9 pages, races are a bit underwhelming, double slice is confuzzling etc).
The guts of it though I think is a winner. You could use its engine to make a more complicated 5E, OSR clone or an OGL 4E clone. D&D tradition go beat on goblins (Keep on the Borderlands, Lost Mines of Phandelver, Lost Star).
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agreed, we need a random harlots table
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Well, that was a surprisingly balanced review, given the thread title
Zardnaar is a professional doomsayers. He did nothing but whine and moan about how awful the playtest was for 5e and how much he loves AD&D 2e but how P
F1e should be copy pasted wholesale. Expect nothing but click bait thread titles from Zardnaar and if he has something positive to say in the actual thread it will be a refreshing surprise.
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Zardnaar is a professional doomsayers. He did nothing but whine and moan about how awful the playtest was for 5e and how much he loves AD&D 2e but how P
F1e should be copy pasted wholesale. Expect nothing but click bait thread titles from Zardnaar and if he has something positive to say in the actual thread it will be a refreshing surprise.
5E playtest was awful apart from 3 or 4 packets but I knew 5E success or lack of it would have sod all to do with the playtest vs the final product.
AD&D 2E has a lot of concepts I like, the execution is off in a lot of cases. 2E is good in terms of what you can do with it using official material or taking elements of modern D&D and plugging into it. For example you can dump level and racial restrictions replace THAC0 with BAB plug in BECMI or d20 ability scores and not break the game.
And you have the settings.
Click bait titles get people talking, I had a nice one the other day got all of 1 or 2 reply's. More people want to complain about PF2 than test it, if you test it don't like it fair enough. Well the playtest was good for how they set it up but the packets were lacking although I had a ot of fun with the 2nd packet (the Sorcerer one).
The other funny thing about 2E is you can find the genesis of a lot of "modern" concepts in it from feats through to the disadvantage/advantage mechanic.
I liked the session we had today, I have doubts to higher level PF2 in this playtest version more due to the large prof number required and magic items being built into the system math as I think cantrips for example might actually scale faster than martial damage without magic weapons. Een then I think the example I looked at was with a d12 weapon might have to crunch some numbers.
Took me almost 2 weeks and 15+ hours to grok the system at least to a certain extent.Level 1 was fun the next test for these characters is level 9. Level 1 passed the does this feel like D&D test for me although ins some ways you are more of a level 2 or 3 PC.
Much like 4E PF2 plays better than it reads ATM.
Pretty good review, from what i recall of level 1.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on higher level play, and how your experiences compare to my own.
I also agree that we definitely need a random harlots table.