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"Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them."
Does this ability only work for mind-affecting spells, as the first sentence implies, or does it work for any spells the sorcerer casts, which is what the second sentence seems to say? Can an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer cast Enlarge Person on a once-human skeleton, or does that not work since the spell isn't mind-affecting?
Does this ability overcome undead immunities, or just targeting restrictions? Can an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer cast sleep on a once-human zombie, or does that not work since the zombie is immune to sleep, regardless of targeting restrictions?
Thanks.
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I read it and would rule as a GM that both lines are mechanical. Had it said "You hold greater sway over undead's minds" or something to that effect, I might rule differently but mind-affecting is rules lingo.
The rule says nothing beyond that. So spells with the mind-affecting descriptor or spells that specifically outline their affect as mind-affecting cast by undead-blooded sorcerers treat corporeal undead that were once humanoids as humanoids.
With sleep specifically, I am inclined to treat it exactly like a humanoid that is immune to sleep. However, that ruling I'm less confident about.
With sleep specifically, I am inclined to treat it exactly like a humanoid that is immune to sleep. However, that ruling I'm less confident about.
I'm willing to accept that, although it does make the arcana pretty underwhelming. There's not a lot of mind-affecting spells a sorcerer can take, let alone wants to take, that undead aren't immune to in more ways then just being immune to mind affecting spells. Basically fear and charm effects only. Between the meh spell list and the most restrictive reading of the bloodline arcana, sorcerers who want a necromantic theme are probably better off choosing one of the other bloodlines, anyway. Not like necromancy was a good choice for sorcerers in 3.5, either. Oh, well. :(
I read it and would rule as a GM that both lines are mechanical. Had it said "You hold greater sway over undead's minds" or something to that effect, I might rule differently but mind-affecting is rules lingo.
The rule says nothing beyond that. So spells with the mind-affecting descriptor or spells that specifically outline their affect as mind-affecting cast by undead-blooded sorcerers treat corporeal undead that were once humanoids as humanoids.
With sleep specifically, I am inclined to treat it exactly like a humanoid that is immune to sleep. However, that ruling I'm less confident about.
to get technical about it, skeletons are not immune to sleep because they are "skeletons". They are immune to sleep because they have the "undead trait". If an undead bloodline sorcerer gets to treat humanoid corporeal undead, like regular humanoids, then sleep does effect them. If in the skeleton immunities description, they were immune to sleep as well as having the undead traits, then that would be different.
By my reading of it, you just ignore "undead traits" for the purposes of mind effecting spells.
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I'm going to necro this thread, as one of my Carrion Crown PCs is eyeing this ability very closely and asking the same question as the OP.
My search-fu didn't turn up any more answers. Does anyone else have any additional insight?
To frame the discussion:
- Obviously, Charm Person works.
- Does Sleep work? (ie does it undo all "Undead Immunities"?)
- Does Enlarge Person work? (a strict reading of the text suggests it might, but that's weird)
Anyone else?
Anybody? I'm surprised more CC players aren't looking into this.
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Anybody? I'm surprised more CC players aren't looking into this.
I'm pretty sure Anburaid's interpretation is RAI. If the undead is corporeal and came from something that used to be humanoid, then any mind affecting spell that affects humanoids works on said undead.
Anybody? I'm surprised more CC players aren't looking into this.I'm pretty sure Anburaid's interpretation is RAI. If the undead is corporeal and came from something that used to be humanoid, then any mind affecting spell that affects humanoids words on said undead.
I am inclined to agree.
More thread necromancy.
Going to be a PC in a CC campaign soon and this seems a bit ambiguous.
"Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them."
RAW (specifically the 2nd sentence) appears to imply that you can ignore all undead traits for corporeal humanoids that would otherwise be immunities and goes well beyond mind-affecting spell, such as energy drain, death effects and anything requiring a fort save. It does not say "which mind-affecting spells affect them."
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Basically as I read it, if a mind-affecting spell would be cast on an undead normally, it's undead traits shut it down and say, "No, i'm undead, these are my immunities. See? I'm immune to sleep and charm person."
What this bloodline arcana does is it disables the undead's ability to use their resistances versus any spell that has [mind-affecting] in the descriptor. So if you had a mind affecting spell that would instantly kill a humanoid, it will now affect the corporeal humanoid undead.
The undead can no longer say, "I'm immune to instant death effects." because it has [mind-affecting] in the descriptor.
Furthermore I believe that as per normal, a human has an intelligence score and those with intelligence 2 or lower cannot be affected by charms because of their low intelligence. This is trumped by the ability when it comes to undead. Many undead are mindless and so one would think they cannot be affected, however it doesn't state in the rule that it must affect only intelligent undead. It specifically clumps all undead into the categories of corporeal humanoid or not that are under it's effects.
Now lets say you were to take the crossblooded archetype and you took serpentine bloodline as your alternate. In that it states that you can affect animals, magical beasts, etc...
Some might think since you can affect undead now, and can affect animals, that you can affect undead animals or undead magical beasts. This is not the case. The ability specifically states that it has to be a corporeal undead humanoid.
These are my thoughts on the matter.