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Back to the original topic, I'd really like to see the combat feats scale based on proficiency like the skill feats.
EX. when you have cleave, and expert or master in the weapon you use with it, you should automatically get the benefits of great cleave as well, no need for separate feats.
Same thing for double shot becoming triple shot, and knockback becoming awesome blow.
I like this. It opens the fighter/other class that should have access to combat feats to take more styles instead of focusing on 1.
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Reading the blogs I was really keen on making a dual wielding Barbarian cause Double Slice made it look really cool, only to be saddened to find out they don't have access to the Double Slice feat. And lots of the classes were in that predicament.
As someone not fond of equipment and weapon styles being restricted to certain classes, I got to thinking, have Classes have actual Class Feats, and tie the Weapon related Feats to their own thing. And with the Proficiency system we already have the structure in place. It would also give the tiers of Weapon Proficiency a purpose other than just attack and damage bonuses.
Tie things like Power Attack and Double Slice to being Trained/Expert in those Weapons, that way a Fighter still has a leg up while keeping a structure and pacing to when the Feats are accessible (or even better have some of those things be options unlocked at those Tiers, similar to skills, rather than Combat/General Feats you have to spend).
I also support the idea of making feats about what you stab things to death with/in General feats, and having them scale up with Proficiency in the weapon. I've tossed the idea around in another thread, but the idea I had after chewing on this for a week was that a weapon style feat (like two-weapon fighting or dueling) should be one General feat that scales up at each new Proficiency. So for a Two-Weapon Fighting General feat you might get Double Slice at feat selection, Two-Weapon Parry at Expert, Two-Weapon Riposte at Master, and something better (Double Slice as only one action?) at Legendary. You could also bump each of those down a proficiency, and make another thing happen at Legendary. It would clean out a bunch of redundant class feats from the classes, leaving more room for cool class stuff like Sudden Charge or Positioning Assault and, because it's only eating a single General feat, shouldn't put too much of a squeeze on the feats you get at each level.
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I also support the idea of making feats about what you stab things to death with/in General feats, and having them scale up with Proficiency in the weapon. I've tossed the idea around in another thread, but the idea I had after chewing on this for a week was that a weapon style feat (like two-weapon fighting or dueling) should be one General feat that scales up at each new Proficiency. So for a Two-Weapon Fighting General feat you might get Double Slice at feat selection, Two-Weapon Parry at Expert, Two-Weapon Riposte at Master, and something better (Double Slice as only one action?) at Legendary. You could also bump each of those down a proficiency, and make another thing happen at Legendary. It would clean out a bunch of redundant class feats from the classes, leaving more room for cool class stuff like Sudden Charge or Positioning Assault and, because it's only eating a single General feat, shouldn't put too much of a squeeze on the feats you get at each level.Reading the blogs I was really keen on making a dual wielding Barbarian cause Double Slice made it look really cool, only to be saddened to find out they don't have access to the Double Slice feat. And lots of the classes were in that predicament.
As someone not fond of equipment and weapon styles being restricted to certain classes, I got to thinking, have Classes have actual Class Feats, and tie the Weapon related Feats to their own thing. And with the Proficiency system we already have the structure in place. It would also give the tiers of Weapon Proficiency a purpose other than just attack and damage bonuses.
Tie things like Power Attack and Double Slice to being Trained/Expert in those Weapons, that way a Fighter still has a leg up while keeping a structure and pacing to when the Feats are accessible (or even better have some of those things be options unlocked at those Tiers, similar to skills, rather than Combat/General Feats you have to spend).
*nods*
The more I think on it the more I'm liking the concept of tying the power of the various abilities to proficiency levels.
*nods*
The more I think on it the more I'm liking the concept of tying the power of the various abilities to proficiency levels.
This is what 1e did. The only difference is "proficiency" was called "BAB". I think the proficiency system as a replacement is more elegant, but not if you're not going to actually take advantage of it...
I mean, I personally thought that was what they were going to do. If it wasn't making feats that scale by proficiency (which I'm not sure about from a building standpoint), then at least it would make Proficiency act as a smoothed-out version of BAB.
Though now that I think about it and as a small aside, how goofy would it be to have Proficiency for casting too? Fireball deals 1d6 per level of proficiency or something, and you gate spell levels by Proficiency as well. Might not work for a class-based system though, or maybe that's what the eventual Magus will look like...
I think they should just bake access to the fighter class feats into the three other martial classes.
Replace Sudden Charge from Barbarian and Double Slice from Ranger with the following class feat. For the Paladin you would just add it to their class feats available (they currently only have three class feats at level one)
Martial Training (Feat 1) <Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin>
Gain one fighter feat. For the purposes of meeting its prerequisites, your fighter level is equal to half your level (minimum of 1).
Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you select it, you can gain a new fighter feat.Other classes would need to take the "classic" route of Fighter Dedication followed additional Fighter multi-class feats.
That's kind of workable if they want to go that way, but then the Fighter is again locked to being the "combat feats" guy.
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They said they were mostly doing a way with feat trees.I like the ideal of turning some of the feats chains into scaling feats.
This would work for a lot of the fighter feats:
Combat Grab -> Improved Combat Grab
Sudden Charge -> Sudden Leap
Brutish Shove -> Improved Brutish Shove
Dueling Parry -> Dueling Dance
DP -> Dueling Riposte -> Improved Dueling Riposte
Double Shot -> Triple Shot -> Multishot Paragon
Twin Parry -> Twin Paragon
TP -> Twin Riposte -> Improved Twin Riposte
Incredible Aim -> Incredible Follow-Up
Reflexive Shield -> Improved Reflexive Shield
Double Slice -> Graceful Poise
For doing away with feat trees, that is a lot of feat trees the fighter still has. Both the Dueling Parry and the Twin Parry trees have 4 feats. That is a lot of class feats to do one trick well.
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There are actual fighting styles in real life that use two weapons. Florentine Fencing, Nito Ryu Kenjutsu, and various martial arts use two weapons. It is not just a fantasy trope.Yeah, that doesn't look dumb at all.That site doesn't allow direct links to images. Try this one.Dual wielding is kind of dumb and exists just to fill a fantasy trope, that trope doesn't match up with Barbarians so I'm ok with them not having easy access to it.I think Blizzard might disagree with that opinion...Yes, artificial fighting systems with rules and social/fun/honor constraints sometimes use two weapons. Barbarians trying to kill and not be killed in raids and real battles do not fit that mold.
Well, maybe some of the early ones who fought the Roman legions before the survivors decided that winning fights might be a cool idea.
As usual when the topic of "realistic/practical fighting styles" comes up, if we're saying that Pathfinder fighting styles should correlate to real-life ones, then I guess we'll have to go ahead and delete the Monk class, as going into combat unarmed and unarmored IRL is ineffective suicide.
But since we don't want to do that because this is a fantasy game, how about we let people play characters with fighting styles they think are fun and cool?
Back to the original topic, I'd really like to see the combat feats scale based on proficiency like the skill feats.
EX. when you have cleave, and expert or master in the weapon you use with it, you should automatically get the benefits of great cleave as well, no need for separate feats.
Same thing for double shot becoming triple shot, and knockback becoming awesome blow.
PF1 tried this in the Vigilante class with a couple feats. Mostly it spawned lots of "how can I get more vigilante class feats" requests, but I think it worked out pretty well. Feat progression was based on class level, but tying it to proficiency wouldn't be too terrible. If they needed to pad out or delay the progression, they could hook the critical weapon effect feats in there somewhere as well.
There really are too few proficiency levels for this to work without some heavy revision. It also locks players into a series of choices which I don't think is a good idea.