What the Bard did right that the Alchemist did wrong

[shroudb]

I know there are a lot of Alchemist threads already, but bear with me, because I think if Paizo can chisel a chassis for the class like it did with Bard, we can have something amazing.

The one thing I loved with playtesting the Bard was Performance.

It really felt like the things that I did (outside of casting) were really impacted by my Performance rolls. They felt thematic, and they worked.

How did it worked?
Simple really.

A few at will performance based abilities that always work get even BETTER by using limited resources and your performing ability to make them even better.

When you succeed it really feels like your performance mattered.

Now, let's look at Alchemist.

Your craft (alchemy) is basically useless.
A legendary alchemist is no better than a simply trained one.
You use your magical juju to make stuff and when you're out of juju that's it.

Now, just imagine:

A system where you had your base stuff always available, but with a limited resource (let's call it reagents) you got to make them better, all tied to a Craft(alchemy) expertise.

The problem with a direct conversion is the actual alchemical items. They are better than cantrips, but much worse than equivalent spells. If I had to put a number on it, I would say that they would be around 40% of an equivalent spell in power.

So, if we can't have quality, let's have quantity.

Something like :

Quote:

Advanced alchemy:
Your careful alchemical treatment of basic materials can turn them temporarily to alchemical ingredients. During morning preparation you can invest as much RP as you want to create those Reagents. Each RP creates 3 Reagents. Reagents are unstable and return to their base form after 1 day.

You can use those reagents in two ways. Either making infused alchemical items. Those items cost nothing except the reagent and you can make them during your daily preparation. Or keep them to use them for Quick Alchemy.

Infused: Infused items use your class DC but using your craft skill proficiency. They don't cost RP when consumed. Healing and splash damage they inflict is modified by your Int modifier.

Quick alchemy:
By adding reagents to alchemical items on the spot you can modify them on the spot. Using Quick Alchemy DC is always a high difficulty DC for your level and the effects depend on your degree of success. Quick Alchemy is always volatile and destroys the alchemical item if not used by the end of the round.

Then we add stuff like Powers that are the uses of Quick Alchemy. Like

Quote:

Debilitating bomb: (level 4 class feat, Quick Alchemy trait)
Free action. Trigger: you draw an alchemical bomb
You mix in 1 reagent to make your bomb nastier. Choose 1 condition from list x, y, Z and try a Quick Alchemy check. The target of the bomb must save or be afflicted.
Failure: you fail to modify the bomb
Crit failure: you fail to modify the bomb
Success: you apply the condition for 1 minute
Crit success : everyone hit by the splash is also subjected to the condition

Put in a class feat later on, like level 6-8 that allows an alchemist to make reagents into items with 10 mins prep during the day (maybe in place of the now redundant potent alchemy) and I think it'll be fine.

(Disclaimer : numbers on the examples are arbitrary, they may well need adjustments)

[Xenocrat]

I mostly agree on the Bard with the exception of Versatile Performance. The substitute uses of VP are not very good, and are likely to see a considerable degree of waste as there is a strong incentive to invest in those skills anyway, and I don't think the skill feats, if you get them, would work with your Performance as written.

Right now Versatile Performance is a really galling feat tax for Esoteric Scholar. It's enough to make me just archetype into Wizard instead. I really hope VP gets an improvement in the final product.

[Paradozen]

Xenocrat wrote:

I mostly agree on the Bard with the exception of Versatile Performance. The substitute uses of VP are not very good, and are likely to see a considerable degree of waste as there is a strong incentive to invest in those skills anyway, and I don't think the skill feats, if you get them, would work with your Performance as written.

Right now Versatile Performance is a really galling feat tax for Esoteric Scholar. It's enough to make me just archetype into Wizard instead. I really hope VP gets an improvement in the final product.

I kinda like VP for debuffer bards. It saves you from needing to invest in intimidation if you can Demoralize with performance (which you will likely be increasing anyway). Of course, Dirge of Doom makes this less useful but you can use Demoralize and Inspire Courage in the same round without any investment.

[Traiel]

I liked VP when i tried it out.. until i saw that Intimidating Glare requires you to be trained in intimidation.... and then i was sad.

[Zwordsman]

Oh.. on the topic of "free sustainable usable skill throughout the day that improves their limited use things..
That is pretty similar to the idea I had in {url=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vd2o?Alchemists-should-be-like-Adlet-from -Rokka-no#9] this thread. [/url]

I really like the idea of synergy with their sustain and their "limited use resources"

[Alchemic_Genius]

I actually had a somewhat similar suggestion! My idea pretty much allowed the alchemist to make free items as an exploration tactic, and put a cap on how many they can make, in order to avoid the issue of "well, I spend 3 hours making infinate gear...")