Alright, I played through Doomsday Dawn with a party of four (Bard, Sorcerer, Fighter) as a lawful neutral cleric of Zon-Kuthon (not really sure why this is allowed considering the placement of alignment concerning other deities) and here are my critiques. Firstly, I'd like to applaud Paizo for their work regarding the cleric for it feels like I'm able to fulfill my fantasies as a Shadowpriest in a way that no RPG I've explored has been able to do formerly. Harm is a fantastic spell and my approach regarding mind-focused spells rewarded itself greatly, however...
I felt a little too comfortable.
While my allies had to struggle with finding a placement for their few allotted skill ranks I found myself as the prodigy of many hats. I usually went first and was very perceptive due to my high wisdom stat, but additionally was very knowledgable about almost everything in the tomb due to the fact that such knowledge was also keyed off of Nature and Religion. Being the person most likely to spot such things as well as being able to distinguish the minute details of them felt good, but in comparison to my Fighter friend it felt like he offered very little in any of these fields.
My high amount of base skills (5) gave me a large amount of wiggle room and that combined with the fact that a majority of the things I cared about (Medicine, Religion, Nature, Perception) was all keyed off of one stat made me feel very guilty when staring at my group's other casters. Additionally, due to a high CHA I was able to lay waste to foes with my Harm multiple times, while our Sorceress' resources were limited enough that we needed to return to town and rest for 3 times in order to have her spells available my resources stayed topped off for the entire adventure due to Harm, Domain abilities and of course, my normal spells granting me practically no rounds without magic. And even then I could wade in with my spiked chain and medium armor and take a few hits.
I thought of if I brought an alchemist here instead (my original character sheet for this playtest), about how I'd actually be dealing less damage with those firebombs then my Harm ability. About how my resources would be limited to a mere 5 creations of said lower-ranged bombs that I'd be required to hit with, while as a cleric I boasted 5 harms, 4 uses of my domain ability on top of that, cantrips and normal spells. Additionally I'd probably be going first...
It just seemed like the difference between me and my party members was night and day so to speak. And I'm the 9th level caster, I'm supposed to be the one who's looking forwards to the high levels.
All in all, I think Cleric needs a nerf, at least early.
From what I've seen of the Druid in action, it's very similar.
CoDzilla returns?
What domain were you using? (I am asking to take into account how often using its power made sense)
Do you think that changing channel energy to be powered from spell-points instead of separate pool would prevent being that more powerful than the rest of the party?
Rather than nerfing cleric, since it's actually decently designed, why not improve other classes instead? :P
I'd agree with this if the whole point of the system didn't seem to be stripping down the bloat and numbers heavy bits of PF. At least that's how I interpretted it with everything having lower numbers all around.
Buffing everything to Cleric's current level is A. a lot more work B. has a lot higher chances of breaking the current system, which might require some retooling of the approach as a whole. As thus, my suggestion is to bring Cleric down to a better baseline.
What domain were you using? (I am asking to take into account how often using its power made sense)
Do you think that changing channel energy to be powered from spell-points instead of separate pool would prevent being that more powerful than the rest of the party?
I used Pain, it's pretty heckin' good if I do say so myself. However upon learning that mental damage wasn't as effective as I thought it'd be I'd probably pick another one in the future.
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The cleric of Sarenrae in the group i'm currently mastering is feeling very underwhelming ATM. He's a glorified box of bandage for the barbarian who is doing the heavy lifting.
I suspect that your cleric feeling overtuned is because you are comparing with other full casters like sorc or bard who are in an even worst spot since they have no spell point offensive option at the moment, unless you feel like going melee with your sorc.
I do agree that, once again, Wis is the Dex of the mental stat. Totally overtuned, mostly thanks to Perception.
The cleric of Sarenrae in the group i'm currently mastering is feeling very underwhelming ATM. He's a glorified box of bandage for the barbarian who is doing the heavy lifting.
I suspect that your cleric feeling overtuned is because you are comparing with other full casters like sorc or bard who are in an even worst spot since they have no spell point offensive option at the moment, unless you feel like going melee with your sorc.I do agree that, once again, Wis is the Dex of the mental stat. Totally overtuned, mostly thanks to Perception.
Bards are on a pretty good spot atm not sure why you feel they are weak.
Barbarian later on starts to have trouble reliably hitting/criting without the support of the rest of the party.
the one bard I saw play went full caster ditching weapons, and it was pretty bad. Probably with weapon and shield it would have been way better since Strike is totally busted compared to Cast a Spell right now.
Can't say for high level, right now we are still going through Lost Star. But right now the barbarian to me seems to have the same hit chance as everyone else.
Bards have the trouble of lacking a means of hitting TAC with their cantrips, as they're limited to Chill Touch or Telekinetic Projectile for offensive options outside of gaining alternate cantrips through Ancestry. Only Chill Touch hits TAC, and it's melee range.
You'll probably see many bards picking up alternate options through their background, then sitting back and spamming Inspire Courage/Ranged Cantrip each round.
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The scaling doesn’t change for cantrips, whether or not from a primary source or secondary source. A 9th level character casts 5th level cantrips, regardless of source (half your level, rounded up, just like all spells).
Normally, cantrips scale up to your highest level spell slots. That phrase is clarifying that even if your highest level spells known are less than half your caster level, your cantrips still fully scale based upon your character level, rather than to be level of your highest level spells.
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I'd agree with this if the whole point of the system didn't seem to be stripping down the bloat and numbers heavy bits of PF. At least that's how I interpretted it with everything having lower numbers all around.
Buffing everything to Cleric's current level is A. a lot more work B. has a lot higher chances of breaking the current system, which might require some retooling of the approach as a whole. As thus, my suggestion is to bring Cleric down to a better baseline.
I will agree that clerics seem to have too many skill proficiencies, at least compared with martial characters, but it sounds like your cleric was actually fun to play and useful in multiple situations. Why should we want that for all characters?
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Normally, cantrips scale up to your highest level spell slots. That phrase is clarifying that even if your highest level spells known are less than half your caster level, your cantrips still fully scale based upon your character level, rather than to be level of your highest level spells.
This. It means multiclass characters cast cantrips at full potency, rather than at a laughable rate. The rate of progression for cantrips, to be fair, is pretty laughable, but still.
Most monsters in the bestiary have a TAC 2 to 3 points lower than their AC. Some, like the purple worm, have a difference of 4. Although this is somewhat offset by the caster’s likely lower attack bonus, if one optimizes for touch attacks (say via maxing Dex), then cantrips become more competitive, even at the two action casting cost. These builds will rarely miss, and a ray of frost crit at level one does 2d8 damage, while produce flame does 3d4+. If you are level 9, say, those same crits deal around 4d8+8 and 4d6+8+2d4 persistent, respectively.
The cleric of Sarenrae in the group i'm currently mastering is feeling very underwhelming ATM. He's a glorified box of bandage for the barbarian who is doing the heavy lifting.
I suspect that your cleric feeling overtuned is because you are comparing with other full casters like sorc or bard who are in an even worst spot since they have no spell point offensive option at the moment, unless you feel like going melee with your sorc.I do agree that, once again, Wis is the Dex of the mental stat. Totally overtuned, mostly thanks to Perception.
I mean, if he built towards being a box of bandages then he'll end up being a box of bandages I suppose. But I toyed around a bit with the iconic sheet (Kyra) and she didn't feel like just a healbot at all, her offensive options were pretty heckin' great, she had well rounded skills in addition to having the potential to heal (which my shadowpriest didn't really have. )
I think all in all with full armor being less attractive to well, everyone and the way that weapons have changed, with the addition of class features and skills being rearranged to suit them that cleric just happens to have very little of the problems holding them back from the previous session.
Which is fine, but it feels like this only applies to them and not Druid because most classes lost their options to class feats in the port over. Cleric didn't really lose anything, it just got class options.
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