| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was pleasantly surprised as I started reading the new stealth-related conditions - Seen, Concealed, Unseen and Sensed. It's all clear-cut, nicely defined with not much room for misunderstandings.
However - I then went through the Stealth skill and spotted a horrible change from 1E. Part of the Sneak action:
"You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or
aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement[...]"
What this means is, the moment you leave an area of concealment or cover, you are instantly revealed and any enemy with line of sight is immediately aware of you.
Practically, this removes a character's ability to sneak out of cover, approach an enemy and attack him while he's still flat-footed.
It also means that you can never go from cover to cover when sneaking around an area, because enemies are treated as always paying attention to every corner around them, even when unaware of an enemy's presence.
This used to be the case for Pathfinder's first edition, however the devs made the very welcome and necessary change of this paragraph:
"When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."
I would like to suggest that a similar change be made in 2E's rules. It would really make a sneaky character way more compelling and interesting to play.
On the other hand, I provisionally see this as a possible welcome change since this means no enemies can ambush the party. They can't use Stealth to attack since "if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."
On the other hand, I provisionally see this as a possible welcome change since this means no enemies can ambush the party. They can't use Stealth to attack since "if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."
Why do you think that's the case? The Unseen condition states:
"If a creature is unseen, you have no idea where it is. Youdon’t know what space it occupies, you’re flat-footed to
it, and you can’t easily target it with attacks or targeted
spells and affects. "
Enemies can still ambush the party by attacking from behind cover or concealment, such as in a dense forest or a dark dungeon (assuming there's no light on them and the PCs don't have darkvision).
The only difference it makes is that a melee rogue can't effectively use Sneak in combat to get Sneak Attacks, unless under very specific circumstances.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think they just need to put in a line about inattentive watchers. "You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or
aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement, unless a creature that might see you is otherwise distracted and not looking in that direction, as determined by the GM."
Yes, that is helpful, but I think there needs to be a way of determining that mechanically.
And what better way... than the PC's Stealth result vs their Perception DC? It just makes perfect sense, as it's the PC that makes the decision of when to move from cover. It should be part of the Sneak check to determine whether you took advantage of your enemy not paying attention.
On the other hand, I provisionally see this as a possible welcome change since this means no enemies can ambush the party. They can't use Stealth to attack since "if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."Why do you think that's the case? The Unseen condition states:
"If a creature is unseen, you have no idea where it is. You
don’t know what space it occupies, you’re flat-footed to
it, and you can’t easily target it with attacks or targeted
spells and affects. "Enemies can still ambush the party by attacking from behind cover or concealment, such as in a dense forest or a dark dungeon (assuming there's no light on them and the PCs don't have darkvision).
The only difference it makes is that a melee rogue can't effectively use Sneak in combat to get Sneak Attacks, unless under very specific circumstances.
No, they can't. The instant before the enemy tries to attack, they are revealed and no longer unseen, per the Stealth rules, and the player is no longer flat-footed.
No, they can't. The instant before the enemy tries to attack, they are revealed and no longer unseen, per the Stealth rules, and the player is no longer flat-footed.On the other hand, I provisionally see this as a possible welcome change since this means no enemies can ambush the party. They can't use Stealth to attack since "if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."Why do you think that's the case? The Unseen condition states:
"If a creature is unseen, you have no idea where it is. You
don’t know what space it occupies, you’re flat-footed to
it, and you can’t easily target it with attacks or targeted
spells and affects. "Enemies can still ambush the party by attacking from behind cover or concealment, such as in a dense forest or a dark dungeon (assuming there's no light on them and the PCs don't have darkvision).
The only difference it makes is that a melee rogue can't effectively use Sneak in combat to get Sneak Attacks, unless under very specific circumstances.
"If you’re unseen by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature
to see you (such as when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded,or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), you
automatically treat the result of your d20 roll as a 20 against that
creature on your checks to Sneak. You also continue to be unseen
if you lose cover against or are no longer concealed from such a
creature. Acting to do something other than Hide or Sneak makes
you sensed instead of seen. If a creature senses you via Seek, you
must Sneak to become unseen by it again."
In the situations I mentioned, the Sneak result doesn't matter - the enemies are Unseen because they literally aren't visible. So they remain Sensed after their attack, making you still flat-footed.
Even if the circumstance is not like that, enemies can still "ambush" you. They can remain hidden while you're exploring and then attack when you're in unfavourable positions. Enemies rarely use the mechanic I'm talking about in 1E anyway.
Unless they're using ranged attacks from concealment, or the players don't have access to light (maybe the enemies snuffed their torch somehow).No, they can't. The instant before the enemy tries to attack, they are revealed and no longer unseen, per the Stealth rules, and the player is no longer flat-footed.On the other hand, I provisionally see this as a possible welcome change since this means no enemies can ambush the party. They can't use Stealth to attack since "if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack."Why do you think that's the case? The Unseen condition states:
"If a creature is unseen, you have no idea where it is. You
don’t know what space it occupies, you’re flat-footed to
it, and you can’t easily target it with attacks or targeted
spells and affects. "Enemies can still ambush the party by attacking from behind cover or concealment, such as in a dense forest or a dark dungeon (assuming there's no light on them and the PCs don't have darkvision).
The only difference it makes is that a melee rogue can't effectively use Sneak in combat to get Sneak Attacks, unless under very specific circumstances.
Ranged attacks are still attacks, and therefore instantly reveal you before you attack per the Stealth skill, unless you spotted a rule I didn't. The rules for Concealment on p. 302 don't have any wording that negates the rules for Stealth on p. 158. There's even the Goblin feat Very Sneaky that only grants your target a flat-footed condition against your attack if you critically succeed Stealth against the creature.
There's five levels of sensing a creature:
Seen
Concealed
Sensed
Unseen
Invisible
The Stealth skill specifically states that an enemy attacked by an unseen creature is not flat-footed against that attack (p. 158) unless it's impossible for that creature to see them. Barring the listed scenarios (creature blind, lacking darkvision in darkness, etc) simply hiding behind something that grants the Unseen condition isn't enough to make them flat-footed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ranged attacks are still attacks, and therefore instantly reveal you before you attack per the Stealth skill, unless you spotted a rule I didn't. The rules for Concealment on p. 302 don't have any wording that negates the rules for Stealth on p. 158. There's even the Goblin feat Very Sneaky that only grants your target a flat-footed condition against your attack if you critically succeed Stealth against the creature.
I apologize, I misquoted. The text wasn't from the Unseen condition.
It's in the text of the Stealth skill, here's the important part:"If you’re unseen by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature
to see you [...] Acting to do something other than Hide or Sneak makes
you sensed instead of seen."
Which makes sense - If you're in the darkness, it's impossible for you to be Seen. But since you attacked, the enemies know you're there, making you Sensed. Sensed, however, still makes your enemies flat-footed to you.
But either way, I believe the matter of ambush is unrelated to the part of the skill I'm referring to. Surprise rounds aren't really a thing anymore anyway, from what I gather.
The only problem is that it's making Sneak Attack a very bland feature, with the only practical and accessible way of triggering it being flanking. Sneaky characters should be encouraged to take advantage of their surroundings, in my opinion. This new ruling only removes possibilities, which I believe ends up making the game less fun.
EDIT: formatting
Also, what really grinds my gears is the text from p. 332:
Watches and Surprise Attacks
Groups usually put a few people on guard to watch out for danger while the others rest. Spending time on watch also interrupts sleep, so a night’s schedule needs to account for everyone’s time on guard duty. Table 10–1 indicates how long the group needs to set aside for rest based on everyone in the group getting a rotating watch assignment of equal length. If a surprise encounter would occur during rest, you can roll a die to randomly determine which character is on watch at the time of the encounter. All characters roll initiative, with sleeping characters typically rolling Perception with the –4 penalty for being asleep. They don’t automatically wake up when rolling initiative, but might get a check to wake up at the start of their turns as normal. If a savvy enemy waits for a particularly vulnerable character to take
watch before attacking, you can have the attack happen on that character’s watch automatically. However, you might have the ambusher attempt a Stealth check against the Perception DCs of the party to see if anyone noticed his approach.
Okay, sure, we need to check to see if we spot the enemy approaching. But if you "automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement" (p. 158) then provided you have no concealment or cover nearby, nobody needs to worry about being ambushed, since the "savvy enemy" literally can't avoid being noticed.
Also, what really grinds my gears is the text from p. 332:
Okay, sure, we need to check to see if we spot the enemy approaching. But if you "automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement" (p. 158) then provided you have no concealment or cover nearby, nobody needs to worry about being ambushed, since the "savvy enemy" literally can't avoid being noticed.Watches and Surprise Attacks
Groups usually put a few people on guard to watch out for danger while the others rest. Spending time on watch also interrupts sleep, so a night’s schedule needs to account for everyone’s time on guard duty. Table 10–1 indicates how long the group needs to set aside for rest based on everyone in the group getting a rotating watch assignment of equal length. If a surprise encounter would occur during rest, you can roll a die to randomly determine which character is on watch at the time of the encounter. All characters roll initiative, with sleeping characters typically rolling Perception with the –4 penalty for being asleep. They don’t automatically wake up when rolling initiative, but might get a check to wake up at the start of their turns as normal. If a savvy enemy waits for a particularly vulnerable character to take
watch before attacking, you can have the attack happen on that character’s watch automatically. However, you might have the ambusher attempt a Stealth check against the Perception DCs of the party to see if anyone noticed his approach.
Yes, I really think this limitation makes no mechanical, narrative or any kind of logical sense.
Reading over the stealth skill was so disappointing. It feels like there is far too much rules oversight there.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not quite a fan of the stealth rules either, as written.
If you do anything
else, you become seen just before you act. For instance, if you
attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted
against that attack.
I believe this is the line JDLPF was specifically talking about, and it's pretty garbage. This makes it impossible to sneak up on anyone, ever, whether it's to jab a dagger in their throat, scare a friend as a prank, dump a bucket of ice water on the team leader's head for a job well done, sneak past a bouncer to get in the tavern, etc.
And the success condition of sneak just muddies things up.
Am I seen during my movement (Success You become unseen by the creature (or remain so)
during your movement and remain unseen by the creature
at the end of it.
=Sneak]You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or
aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement
) or not, based on the success result in the same entry?
In essence, it seems sneak attack is only a sneak attack if you roll high enough on initiative. So maybe that's the thing: if you remain unseen (somehow, thought it's nigh impossible), you don't enter encounter mode until you go to strike, and you better hope your initiative beats theirs to get that surprise attack (and that's only if you're a rogue). No one else can ever surprise attack anyone.
I've got no real problems with anything else (except maybe resonance and definitely goblins) so far, but I wonder how after going through the process of rewriting stealth to make sense for 1e, they can completely backtrack and destroy it's usability again. And the ability to instantly be seen no matter what also destroys all the cool things that were previewed and listed as possibilities for skills feats. Sure, he's a legend and doesn't need to roll stealth; yeah, because he never does, cuz it's in the GMs hand now (okay, so all the GM rolls are another issue I have I guess) and because he can't actually stealth anyway cuz he'll be seen immediately.
I think it also largely has to do with the increased reliability of the rogue's damage (better access to iteratives, not at 3/4ths BAB). Compared to 1e, rogue is going to be hitting more often, etc. etc. They may have deemed the interaction too strong, or possibly considered it redundant given the additional ways to make people flat + Surprise Attack.
Also, EXTREMELY IMPORTANTLY, sneak no longer has the 30 ft. limitation. That also likely has a lot to do with it. No need to run up close enough to snipe while sneaking, anymore. As a result, you should probably already get sneak consistently anyways (from either sitting in a good hiding spot or flanking).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would like it better if you can attack from stealth like PF1. Since invis no longer gives crazy bonuses to stealth it shouldn't be an issue. I only glanced through the book, but I dont see a lot of modifiers to make you almost impossible to detect either. Unless someone still finds a way to abuse I don't see an issue.
I'm thinking the intent is to mean that you are automatically seen if no part of your turn had you concealed or in cover, and the choice of wording was unfortunately vague.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like it better if you can attack from stealth like PF1. Since invis no longer gives crazy bonuses to stealth it shouldn't be an issue. I only glanced through the book, but I dont see a lot of modifiers to make you almost impossible to detect either. Unless someone still finds a way to abuse I don't see an issue.
To paraphrase one of the designers- someone's always going to find a way to abuse it. Except he then goes on to talk about making things interesting for newer players, which I must say this doesn't seem to be the case. Needing 5 feats to make "I sneak up and shank the guy" viable is not exactly new player friendly.
I'm thinking the intent is to mean that you are automatically seen if no part of your turn had you concealed or in cover, and the choice of wording was unfortunately vague.
That would be fortunate if it's true - it means they only need to rephrase it. However, I think the ruling about attacking from stealth not making the target flat footed is unreasonable as well.