
houser2112 |
Armor Class (AC and TAC )
Your character has two values to represent how difficult she is to strike in combat. These are her Armor Class (AC) and her Touch Armor Class (TAC). Most attacks will be made against your character’s AC, while those that need only to touch her to be effective are made against her TAC.
To calculate her AC, add 10 plus her Dexterity modifier (up to her armor’s Dexterity modifier cap), plus her proficiency modifier with her armor, plus her armor’s item bonus to AC and any other bonuses and penalties that always apply.
To calculate her TAC, add 10 plus her Dexterity modifier (up to her armor’s Dexterity modifier cap), plus her proficiency modifier with her armor, plus her armor’s item bonus to TAC and any other bonuses and penalties that always apply.
Spells or abilities that give your character a bonus or penalty to AC also give an equal bonus or penalty to TAC unless stated otherwise.
The text for AC and TAC are identical. I imagine TAC is going to not include armor item bonus and armor proficiency modifier, and have an uncapped Dexterity modifier?

Taosterlord |
Wait, does this mean you're adding your character level into your AC? Proficiency Modifier includes your level plus a varying number that depends on your rank, according to pages 290-291. It seems like people are assuming you're just adding the rank bonus (which seems to make more sense) but the AC/TAC calculations say to add the whole Proficiency Modifier. I might be going nuts, please tell me I am...

TheFinish |

Wait, does this mean you're adding your character level into your AC? Proficiency Modifier includes your level plus a varying number that depends on your rank, according to pages 290-291. It seems like people are assuming you're just adding the rank bonus (which seems to make more sense) but the AC/TAC calculations say to add the whole Proficiency Modifier. I might be going nuts, please tell me I am...
You're not, you add your level to your AC, jut like you add it to basically everything else. Level is part of every proficiency modifier, from Untrained to Legendary, in everything, from Skills to Saves to Attack to AC.
If you're an 11th level Fighter (Expert in Heavy Armor) with Dex 14, your AC in Splint Mail is:
Normal AC: 10+ 2 (Dex)+ 11 (Level) + 1 (Expert) + 5 (Splint Mail) = 29
Touch AC: 10+ 2 (Dex) + 11 (Level) + 1 (Expert) + 2 (Splint Mail) = 26

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It's not just number inflation. They want you to feel stronger as you level up in the situations where you fight low level enemies, usually in a horde or large numbers. If they took away the whole adding your level to everything then you would never feel stronger or weaker than another creature.
In addition it should go with out saying that adding level to skills makes sense as some things have really high DCs naturally.

Lord_Malkov |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

And the treadmill becomes so obvious and static that they may as well never add any bonuses at all.
In fact, since the limited number of flat advantages that any character gets from ability score or proficiency will inevitably be dwarfed by their simple level bonus, characters will ultimately feel more and more homogenized and less and less unique as they advance. Which feels backward.
This is maybe the most absurd change.
It makes almost everything a coin flip attack at best.
There are ways of toning down the numbers without making the best fighter in the group suffer with a permanent 40% miss chance. These sorts of outcomes feel bad (and slow) in a binary-result game with such a limited set of actions. And then feel worse when you can see quite clearly that there is no way to improve the situation.
I am not suggesting that the old armor class setup was particularly good, but this is not the way to fix it.
There are now about a bajillion feats for each character... let them invest in what they want to be good at. And let them be far better than those that do not invest in those same abilities.
Its okay for the 12th level wizard who has never used a bow and arrow to be worse than the 4th level fighter in an archery contest.

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First of all I love most of PF2, so far. Now for my rant:
Not only do I agree that this is a horrible mechanic to adopt (+1/ level), that came from a horrible version of D&D (4th) that had the same thing but it was +1/2 levels. WOTC had the wisdom to not stay with that design +1/level ruins bounded accuracy, and bounded accuracy was one of the few things 5e did well, it made the entire monster array usable throughout the entire epic campaign.But still kept the echelon of power.
I came to a realization today, that hit me like a ton of bricks, Paizo has never really designed a fantasy RPG, I'm sorry guys but taking 3.5, adding CMB and CMD and power creep to characters, is not creating an RPG from the ground up. I am thinking that there are some designers of PF2 who actually like D&D 4th ed. I don't understand how that happen but it did. 4th edition, is not just a bad version of D&D, when people look back at human history it will be compared to Nazism and the Bubonic plague, yes it's that bad. God told me that Satan wanted D&D 4th ed to enter the world of man to see if they were stupid enough to play it.
Since someone brought up TAC, check out this little gem of design, You have absurd rules propping up like the armor bonus to TAC. Essentially you are EASIER!!, to touch now if you have no armor on compared to a guy in full plate, HOW IN ODINS NAME DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? Some of you don't understand what I am saying but you shall soon discover this. There will be more criticism to come, so find all my posts and read them, wisdom cries out for an ear that can hear.
NOTE: If you love PF, as I do, please, get involved, for God sake I don't want to be stuck playing D&D 5ed for several more years.
P.S. I just played a barbarian in a play test and tried to die and could not get killed no matter what I did, no the Barbarian is not OP, yes the dying rules + hp + hero points, made me feel like I had a handful of get out jail free cards. Dying 4 my ass, never even close buddy, never even a threat of death. the game is too safe as is. Put the Deadly back into D&D. Don't make PF a safe space.

Darge |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First of all I love most of PF2, so far. Now for my rant:
Not only do I agree that this is a horrible mechanic to adopt (+1/ level), that came from a horrible version of D&D (4th) that had the same thing but it was +1/2 levels. WOTC had the wisdom to not stay with that design +1/level ruins bounded accuracy, and bounded accuracy was one of the few things 5e did well, it made the entire monster array usable throughout the entire epic campaign.But still kept the echelon of power.I came to a realization today, that hit me like a ton of bricks, Paizo has never really designed a fantasy RPG, I'm sorry guys but taking 3.5, adding CMB and CMD and power creep to characters, is not creating an RPG from the ground up. I am thinking that there are some designers of PF2 who actually like D&D 4th ed. I don't understand how that happen but it did. 4th edition, is not just a bad version of D&D, when people look back at human history it will be compared to Nazism and the Bubonic plague, yes it's that bad. God told me that Satan wanted D&D 4th ed to enter the world of man to see if they were stupid enough to play it.
Since someone brought up TAC, check out this little gem of design, You have absurd rules propping up like the armor bonus to TAC. Essentially you are EASIER!!, to touch now if you have no armor on compared to a guy in full plate, HOW IN ODINS NAME DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? Some of you don't understand what I am saying but you shall soon discover this. There will be more criticism to come, so find all my posts and read them, wisdom cries out for an ear that can hear.
NOTE: If you love PF, as I do, please, get involved, for God sake I don't want to be stuck playing D&D 5ed for several more years.P.S. I just played a barbarian in a play test and tried to die and could not get killed no matter what I did, no the Barbarian is not OP, yes the dying rules + hp + hero points, made me feel like I had a handful of get out jail free cards. Dying 4 my ass, never even close buddy, never even a threat of death....
I think you're really going overboard with the 4th hate. I played it for 3 years and my group enjoyed it (later moved to 5th as a number of players weren't very crunch heavy, same reason we didn't play pathfinder). 4th actually tried to change things up, it was far from perfect but it solved the linear fighter quadratic wizard problem and gave every class a spectrum of roles and a defining flavor. The essentials line (basically 4.5) went steps ahead to fix a lot of the original issues but it was too little too late after most people had already made up their minds.
It's fine to not like it but you went a little overboard and I usually like reading your posts. Anyway, that's all I had to say

Draco18s |

I came to a realization today, that hit me like a ton of bricks, Paizo has never really designed a fantasy RPG, I'm sorry guys but taking 3.5, adding CMB and CMD and power creep to characters, is not creating an RPG from the ground up. I am thinking that there are some designers of PF2 who actually like D&D 4th ed. I don't understand how that happen but it did. 4th edition, is not just a bad version of D&D, when people look back at human history it will be compared to Nazism and the Bubonic plague, yes it's that bad. God told me that Satan wanted D&D 4th ed to enter the world of man to see if they were stupid enough to play it.
D&D 4E isn't a bad game.
It just wasn't D&D.
The rules are really quite elegant. There might be some mechanical complaints I have with it, but they aren't bad rules. They just don't make for a game that is recognizable as D&D. It's more like a tactical miniatures game. And there's nothing wrong with that.
PF2 has severe mechanical design flaws. Yes there are some things (like +level to everything, the layout of class feats) that are either 4E inspired or 4E-esque. But that's not the problem.
The problem is that the mechanics are bad. As already mentioned, adding level to everything makes the game an obvious treadmill and ruins bounded accuracy. Ancestry feats aren't balanced. Sorcerers don't get 6th and 10th level class feats (despite exactly identically mechanics in Barbarian and Bard using pre-reqs to theme feat choice). Assurance being mechanically a bad choice. Most skill feats being unimpressive (why does the only skill feat for Arcana give access to a spell that classes that have Arcana as a signature skill already have access to? Alchemists are literally the only class that can take full benefit).
I could go on, but I won't.