Thematically, the idea of a fusion seal is pretty cool. I'm picturing a jackie chan talisman that you can pop in and out of a gun to give it special effects and customize is.
But when the rubber hits the road they just don't work for anything they're intended to do.
Fusion seals are thematically supposed to be
Transferable from weapon to weapon
A long term investment
plug and play
but fusion seals really don't do any of that compared to fusions.
While a seal technically can move from one weapon to another in a minute it doesn't work for 24 hours. Meanwhile a fusion can be moved over in 10 minutes by anyone with 1 skill rank in mysticism.
A fusion seal doesn't upgrade with your weapon.
Lets say I want a merciful fusion seal
level six merciful infusion seal costs 1144 credits.
Putting a merciful infusion on a level 2 gun costs 360 credits
moving it from a level 2 gun to a level 4 gun costs 340 credits
Moving it from a level 4 gun to a level 6 gun costs 520 credits
For a total of 1220. Okay, so you laid all your money out at once AND you didn't listen to the church of abadars sermon about delayed gratification being the key to financial success then you saved a few credits, but that merciful fusion seal is junk once you have your level 8 gun, whereas the fusion can save you 1150 credits on your next upgrade (or more if you make the will save...) And yes you can leave the fusion seal on your old gun but you can leave the fusion there too.
You can also get a merciful fusion out of the gate, whereas a fusion seal (6) is technically a 6th level item and a lot harder to come by.
The only point of them seems to be that if you have 24 hours notice that you'll be in melee rather than ranged and need a certain fusion to go back and forth between two of your ~ equal weapons. That is beyond niche.
A fusion seal can be found as loot though, this is it's one niche that I know of.
You can find an uninstalled fusion too and slap it on in 10 minutes with a rank in mysticism.
Characters trained in Engineering or Mysticism can also install fusions, if necessary (for instance, if the PCs find an unused fusion as part of a treasure cache, or in the case of a character who used Mysticism to craft a fusion)
If you have multiple weapons and don’t rush into fights blindly you can switch the fusion between weapons as many time as you want to prepare for the specific fight coming up
Fusion seals don't work for 24 hours. So how often do you know 24 hours in advance that you need a specific fusion BUT that you need it on a weapon that you didn't already put it on?
Like.. under what specific circumstances would that happen? You have a ghost killer knife but you've just found out you're going after ghost pterodactyls so you switch it over to your gun?
I think the main answer is that the "transfer fusions" rules are the problem. They either need to go entirely, or at least have the cost break eliminated.
Without that low level fusions are ridiculously expensive to put on a high level gun, like if you want a trailblazing merciful weapon
Yeah, the 24 hour restriction is kinda garbage. The idea is to carry around a library of fusions seals, but why not make it just like the armor upgrades? 10 minutes plug and play?
but that merciful fusion seal is junk once you have your level 8 gun
At least you can remove the fusion from the seal and install it directly on the weapon... I think? Maybe not.
At least you can remove the fusion from the seal and install it directly on the weapon... I think? Maybe not.
technically you can but it wouldnt do anything.
A fusion seal (6) won't work on an ilevel 8 gun. This makes the fusion a more long term investment
At least you can remove the fusion from the seal and install it directly on the weapon... I think? Maybe not.technically you can but it wouldnt do anything.
A fusion seal (6) won't work on an ilevel 8 gun. This makes the fusion a more long term investment
No, I meant separate the fusion from the seal, turn it back to a regular fusion instead of a fusion seal.
It looks reasonable, but maybe not possible by RAW:
CRB 191
" It’s also possible, though
difficult and fairly expensive, to transfer fusions from one
weapon to another."
"It is also possible to place a weapon fusion into a physical
object, called a fusion seal"
I removed fusion seals and only use weapon fusions. My players were always confused by both, having names so similar, and the benefit of having both, if any, is minimal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The main benefit of a fusion seal is it is a great loot item for players. Something they can immediately slap onto a weapon they like and a day later it is new and improved. I think most of the time if you are upgrading your own weapons most people would go with the fusion itself and not bother with doing the fusion seal.
But for loot they are excellent. If you want to give people something juicy but they are really picky about what weapons they are using a fusion seal is near perfect gives them the ability to up the power of whatever flavor of weapon they want to use without you having to guess it or game it to give them the upgraded weapon directly.
But for loot they are excellent. If you want to give people something juicy but they are really picky about what weapons they are using a fusion seal is near perfect gives them the ability to up the power of whatever flavor of weapon they want to use without you having to guess it or game it to give them the upgraded weapon directly.
You can do that with a regular fusion and a rank in mysticism.
You can do that with a regular fusion and a rank in mysticism.
But for loot they are excellent. If you want to give people something juicy but they are really picky about what weapons they are using a fusion seal is near perfect gives them the ability to up the power of whatever flavor of weapon they want to use without you having to guess it or game it to give them the upgraded weapon directly.
In less time, actually.
I think the "and a rank in mysticism" part is pretty big. Only three classes get it as a class skill, and not every character wants Mysticism. Especially the low-skill classes who somewhat need every point they can get.
Fusion Seals are perfect for the soldier on the go. Swap them out as the mission calls for it, or go with a generic one they like if they don't know what they'll specifically need, all without the help of someone with Mysticism or having to learn it themselves.
And it's even better as a drop item, because then you can just take it from an opponent's weapon and slap it on yours, no matter what it is. Seems to be they'd be in pretty common use as well. Someone who regularly goes up against mercenaries, pirates, or other sentient races should have quite the collection of them after a while.
I think the "and a rank in mysticism" part is pretty big. Only three classes get it as a class skill, and not every character wants Mysticism. Especially the low-skill classes who somewhat need every point they can get.
Fusion Seals are perfect for the soldier on the go. Swap them out as the mission calls for it, or go with a generic one they like if they don't know what they'll specifically need, all without the help of someone with Mysticism or having to learn it themselves.
And it's even better as a drop item, because then you can just take it from an opponent's weapon and slap it on yours, no matter what it is.
You can do that with a fusion too. People touting the fusion seals keep bringing up things that apply MORE to the fusions than the seals. Its kinda weird.
Someone who regularly goes up against mercenaries, pirates, or other sentient races should have quite the collection of them after a while.
Just collect their guns if you're doing that.
You can also istall them with a rank in engineering (mysticism is required for transfer) A group without 1 or the other would be pretty rare
In less time, actually.You can do that with a regular fusion and a rank in mysticism.
But for loot they are excellent. If you want to give people something juicy but they are really picky about what weapons they are using a fusion seal is near perfect gives them the ability to up the power of whatever flavor of weapon they want to use without you having to guess it or game it to give them the upgraded weapon directly.
One thing to note the cost of the fusion seal is up front so transfering it weapon to weapon does not cost anything. So as loot somebody can immediately and with no special skills apply the seal to their weapon of choice provided it can handle the power of the seal in 1 minute.
You can transfer fusions from one weapon to another if you have mysticism but doing so costs half the price of the original fusion. It is far less satisfying for players if they get new loot and then promptly have to pay half the cost of just flat buying it to apply it to the weapon they want to apply it to.
I would agree if one is making their own weapon or buying one direct getting the fusion installed directly makes more sense but for loot fusion seals are really nice.
As loot a fusion seal takes 24 hours to WORK. Yes. It goes on in a minute but still takes 24 hours to activate. You will probably be back in town selling it by then
An un installed fusion found as loot can be put on a weapon by 99% of all parties in 10 minutes
Mechanically, I can see one instance of preferring seals to flat fusion.
Whilst fusion transfer is cheaper than buying a new fusion, and thus a good option for fusions you want to keep, they still have cost to move. If you have situational fusions though, a seal is a better idea.
Example, say you've got Disruptive, Anarchic, Holy, etc. On the way to Eox, you know the Disruptive will be more useful, but it isn't worth spending 1/2 the cost of a fusion for your weapon for a brief adventure. Basically, any fusion that applies against a specific group of enemies, or takes a lot of levels for a damage type you may not always need (like Flaming or Frost), or even ones you might only need for a specific purpose like Tattoo, would be cheaper as seals than spending a bunch of credits and permanent weapon levels to move it around.
Example, say you've got Disruptive, Anarchic, Holy, etc. On the way to Eox, you know the Disruptive will be more useful, but it isn't worth spending 1/2 the cost of a fusion for your weapon for a brief adventure. Basically, any fusion that applies against a specific group of enemies, or takes a lot of levels for a damage type you may not always need (like Flaming or Frost), or even ones you might only need for a specific purpose like Tattoo, would be cheaper as seals than spending a bunch of credits and permanent weapon levels to move it around.
It wouldn't save you any money. You still sell the seals back at 10% , and you can't keep the seals as you level up without using your old back up gun. (or paying an exorbitant price for a higher level seal and hoping that you use that one again)
You either spend half the cost of the fusion (for something small like trailblazer) or the full cost of the fusion to put it on your gun (for a big enchant like ban) or you spend 110% the cost of the fusion and put it on your gun
You're missing what I'm saying.
Let's take a team going to Eox with a Comet Hammer, lvl 10. The owner will likely have fusions on it that contribute to their base character concept, say... Interposing and Calling for 6 levels of the Hammer's potential 10. Knowing they're going to Eox to fight undead, Disruptive is a good level 3 fusion choice.
Now the Hammer's owner could pay to have the Disruptive fusion added to the Hammer for 3,580. This totals the levels of fusions on the weapon to 9. This is a fusion though that will eventually outlive it's usefulness when they go to leave Eox.
Assume after Eox they're going to somewhere like the lair of a red dragon. The Axiomatic fusion would bypass the chaotic dragon's DR, making it a good choice. Unfortunately there's no room for two levels on an Interposing, Calling, Disruptive Comet Hammer. From what I can tell there's no way to remove a fusion you don't want anymore, so for arguements sake let's say you've got a good idea you'll be returning to Eox near the end of your journey. You have to pay to move the Disruptive fusion to whatever item you have laying around that can take it, and then buy up the Axiomatic fusion for another 3,580. Any time you want to change between these two fusions you already own is minimum 1,790 credits.
If instead, the Hammer's owner purchased a seal for Disruptive for 3,938 on a 10th level seal, yes it would take an hour to put it on, but the cost of swapping between the Disruptive and Axiomatic fusions later is now 0 credits, and a change he can do in the 1d6 days of starship travel to Eox or the dragon's lair.
Alternatively, assume he bought Disruptive for the Hammer already. If he knows they're going back to Eox, when he transfers the fusion off, he can move it to a 10th level seal for 1,969, and purchase the Axiomatic as a seal for the higher temporary use price.
If you need the credits numbers to justify it, here they are.
Buying both as fusions and transferring: 3,580+3,580+???+1,790+???+1,790= 10,740 + 400 (the 400 is the calculated minimum for moving the fusions to the lowest level weapon that can hold them, not including the cost of those weapons, which would need to be very specific weapons due to Disruptive's requirements. Plus the Axiomatic fusion would lose value attempting to sell it due to low item level)
Buying both as seal lvl 10: 3,938+3,938= 7,876
Scenario 3 where you originally bought Disruptive but are then moving it to a seal to save it: 3,580+1,969+3,938= 9,487 (and again, decent sale price on the Axiomatic when you're done the dragon quest)
Now the next Hammer is Meteoric at level 16, so that 10th level seal is still good for 5 whole levels minimum, if you're a character who is using a hammer. The level gap for most weapons of the same type seems to ballpark around 4-ish from what I've deduced.
The math though checks out. If it's a fusion you find or already have on something that you want to keep permanently then yeah, transferring is the better option. If you need it /NOW/ and can't wait the 24 hours, transfer during a 10 minute rest while your allies regain Stamina. However there are cases where a seal or two is the better option, and a better long-term investment.
I can think of following scenarios where Fusion Seals make sense:
) very helpful loot from the GM (possibly due to some kind of DR), probably a fusion that can be used a while
) for a character that doesn't specialise in one weapon and might switch out weapons depending on DRs/resistances. While the fusion is down for one day it is pretty cost-effective for switching more often
) Investments in campaigns where shopping/credits might not be available for longer stretches
While not generally useful, I do think they have a place in the game, though I think the game is still pretty young to make definitive judgement calls about that.
I can think of following scenarios where Fusion Seals make sense:
) very helpful loot from the GM (possibly due to some kind of DR), probably a fusion that can be used a while
) for a character that doesn't specialise in one weapon and might switch out weapons depending on DRs/resistances. While the fusion is down for one day it is pretty cost-effective for switching more often
) Investments in campaigns where shopping/credits might not be available for longer stretchesWhile not generally useful, I do think they have a place in the game, though I think the game is still pretty young to make devinitive judgement calls about that.
And there is my long winded explaination with examples reduced to the TLDR version. XD
I can think of following scenarios where Fusion Seals make sense:
) very helpful loot from the GM (possibly due to some kind of DR),
In that case, said GM need to be generous 24 hours in advance, and maybe send a telegram to the players so they understand that particular seal is needed for a particular encounter tomorrow It is not like you can drop a disruption seal in the middle of a undead-filled dungeon so they can use it to advance.
To do that, a fusion would be better. Needs 10m, instead of 24h
In that case, said GM need to be generous 24 hours in advance, and maybe send a telegram to the players so they understand that particular seal is needed for a particular encounter tomorrow It is not like you can drop a disruption seal in the middle of a undead-filled dungeon so they can use it to advance.To do that, a fusion would be better. Needs 10m, instead of 24h
Sure, but the players might not have the money or skills on them to install the fusion.
And telegraphing the importance can be done by e.g. having a weaker encounter where that fusion would've been useful "drops" that as loot.At least in all RPG groups I ever had at least one player would immediately install it, sure it will be useful (again) soon.
I can think of following scenarios where Fusion Seals make sense:
) very helpful loot from the GM (possibly due to some kind of DR),
In that case, said GM need to be generous 24 hours in advance, and maybe send a telegram to the players so they understand that particular seal is needed for a particular encounter tomorrow It is not like you can drop a disruption seal in the middle of a undead-filled dungeon so they can use it to advance.
To do that, a fusion would be better. Needs 10m, instead of 24h
Tell that to my team. We found the seal, then due to other reasons took a day off (disease rolls). We had it ready for the next day, even though there weren't actually any more undead in that dungeon.
But, we always have the chance of encountering them later, and a level 3 seal is still good for any level 3 bludgeoning weapon we're still using later. Or we can transfer it to a stronger seal instead of the weapon directly for that same 50% of final cost. None of us need the Disruptive permanently eating 3 levels of our limited levels. When I get my sword upgrade at 7 I'm putting Interposing on it, then not upgrading with perma-seals again until it gets to level 11 for Flaming.
Sure, but the players might not have the money or skills on them to install the fusion.
In that case, said GM need to be generous 24 hours in advance, and maybe send a telegram to the players so they understand that particular seal is needed for a particular encounter tomorrow It is not like you can drop a disruption seal in the middle of a undead-filled dungeon so they can use it to advance.To do that, a fusion would be better. Needs 10m, instead of 24h
In the example you are giving as a reason why the seal is better, you have a generous GM that is giving out the seal for the players' safety. If so, it's a given that in the same place were you find the fusion, you will have some UPB to spare. Having those 24h, however, it's not that easy to foresee for the GM. Not all the adventures have 2 dungeons, and not always the PC go back to rest while in the middle of one.
Having the skill to install it is a non-issue. It can be installed with Engineering (mysticism is to move it around), only need 1 rank in engineering, and with ship's roles, and how important is engineering in the game, it's a guarantee someone will have it. If nobody can roll for engineering in a sci-fi game, you have tougher problems than installing a fusion, to be honest. It's like saying what happen if there is a secret door, and nobody in the group has points in perception.
The fusion seal might have some uses in certain specific circumstances. But the 24h minimum limit to work kind of destroy it's main adventage, which is that you can swap it from weapon to weapon and change one seal for another if you think the new one will be more useful.
You're missing what I'm saying.
That isn't the problem.
Now the Hammer's owner could pay to have the Disruptive fusion added to the Hammer for 3,580.
There's the problem.
It doesn't cost 3,580 credits to put a disruptive fusion on a level 10 hammer.
It costs 440 credits to put it on a level 3 hammer
and then 1790 to put it on Mjolnir there for a total of 2230
Assume after Eox they're going to somewhere like the lair of a red dragon. The Axiomatic fusion would bypass the chaotic dragon's DR, making it a good choice. Unfortunately there's no room for two levels on an Interposing, Calling, Disruptive Comet Hammer. From what I can tell there's no way to remove a fusion you don't want anymore
They can be transferred off if nothing else.
If instead, the Hammer's owner purchased a seal for Disruptive for 3,938 on a 10th level seal, yes it would take an hour to put it on, but the cost of swapping between the Disruptive and Axiomatic fusions later is now 0 credits, and a change he can do in the 1d6 days of starship travel to Eox or the dragon's lair.
And then when its time to upgrade to his level 12 hammer his fusion seal is junk while his fusion would be worth 3460 towards an upgrade.
The venn diagram you're looking at for fusion seals in your analysis is
1) you know what enemies you'll be fighting for the next 2 adventures
2) the seal fits into the number of allowed fusions on it
3) you ALSO know the rest of what you'll be fighting in that adventure path and you'll never need to upgrade the fusion again.
4) You won't be upgrading your weapon in that time.
5) you won't be upgrading that fusion to your next weapon
That is an overlap so narrow that i don't hesitate to call it non existent.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm only half-joking when I say I think the developers were unsure whether to go with the fusion concept or the fusion seal concept, and both got accidentally left in the book. But I'm not concerned--this problem will be solved with Starfinder Second Edition!
And then when its time to upgrade to his level 12 hammer his fusion seal is junk while his fusion would be worth 3460 towards an upgrade.
What level 12 Hammer? Unless Armory has one. The next 1h Hammer is level 16, and that's a huge level gap. If you look at the 2h Hammers, level 9 and 13 are the levels which is still 4 difference. If you are purchasing weapons more often then about once every 3-4 levels WBL is going to hit you hard.
The venn diagram you're looking at for fusion seals in your analysis is
1) you know what enemies you'll be fighting for the next 2 adventures
2) the seal fits into the number of allowed fusions on it
3) you ALSO know the rest of what you'll be fighting in that adventure path and you'll never need to upgrade the fusion again.
4) You won't be upgrading your weapon in that time.That is an overlap so narrow that i don't hesitate to call it non existent.
1) No. You know the next 1 adventure and have choices. When that adventure is done, the revelation of dragon happens. Getting told "you're going to Eox" would be a 1d6 day trip with time prior to plan what might be there. And as pointed out, I added in the idea of purchasing Disruptive flat, and then the consequences after, because you know the one adventure. You can know "going to Eox now" and buy a seal because you don't know how long you'll need it on your weapon. The dragon was the first example off the top of my head for something you could be told "you're going to fight X", but generally any adventure hook pointing you in a direction you can make some assumptions. Like my team is going to Castrovel and I packed Environmental wear for hot weather.
2) Yes. But this would apply in any case. If you can't afford a fusion, you can't put it on anyway. Seal or otherwise. So this is a redundant point. If I have a level 5 weapon and Interposing plays to my build and playstyle of course I'm not gonna invest in a niche fusion when there's one I want for my build specifically.
3) I never said you knew the whole AP. I implied returning to Eox. Maybe there's someone there who sent you on the dragon mission and you have to return? There could be any reason to think you'd need to return somewhere where something was useful. Eox is my example here, cause it's a planet of undead, and Disruptive specifically works on undead. Any scenario could apply.
4) You may very well upgrade your weapon. However I previously had a thread on balancing the WBL versus the projected earned loot by adventures. Between armor, weapon, augments, and personal upgrades, you can only really afford to upgrade each thing every 3-4 levels. This also fits with the level gaps between the same models of weapon and armor in the CRB. Armory may fill some of these gaps, but unless WBL accomodates you'll still only be upgrading every 3-4 levels.
So of your four venn diagram circles, 2 repeated themselves, one doesn't really apply, and the last only has partial merit. The overlap is the following.
-Recently upgraded your weapon (ie, are not 1-2 levels from an upgrade)
-Have some even vague idea of what you'll be up against
I would add "have free fusion levels" but again, that applies to whether it's a regular fusion or a seal. That makes it less about seals v fusions in general and more about the nature of specific-use fusions.
It doesn't cost 3,580 credits to put a disruptive fusion seal on a level 10 hammer.
It costs 440 credits to put it on a level 3 hammer
and then 1790 to put it on Mjolnir there for a total of 2230
Firstly, there is no level 3 hammer. And no melee bludgeoning weapon above 3 lower in level than 5. So while it would be 440 to put it on a level 3 weapon, no such one fits the criteria for our fusion.
If you consider Axiomatic instead, you can take a level 2 weapon like the Dueling Sword, but you have to add that item's cost to your calculations. The cheapest is a Flame Pistol at 470, making your costs for the level 2 fusion, 360 + 470 + 1,790, for 2,620. While still less than the 3,580 of buying it raw, this is not only a munchkin-y exploit of the rules, it can also apply to moving from the burner item to a Seal, making the level 10 seal's cost only 2,779.
This exploit also loses a lot of steam when you get higher than level 1-2 fusions. A level 5 fusion requires a level 5 burner item, which on the cheap side are 2,900. Factor that in, you have 2,900 + 720 + 1,790 = 5,410, massively blowing the 3,580 of just getting the fusion away.
Now if you want to go the absolute extreme with your gaming of the system, for any fusion you can, apply it to a grenade for 50% off initial install. Get that 6th level Grenade Arrow for 875, for 875 + 520 + 1790 = 3,185. Look at that! Saving a whole 395 credits for any fusion sub level 6.
This is also the kind of exploit I would as GM be nipping in the bud immediately. It's taking advantage of loopholes in design to get ahead, and I can forsee an FAQ addressing it promptly (whenever Paizo decides to adress Starfinder again...).
What level 12 Hammer? Unless Armory has one. The next 1h Hammer is level 16, and that's a huge level gap. If you look at the 2h Hammers, level 9 and 13 are the levels which is still 4 difference. If you are purchasing weapons more often then about once every 3-4 levels WBL is going to hit you hard.
Okay, its worth even more towards that upgrade.
1) No. You know the next 1 adventure and have choices. When that adventure is done, the revelation of dragon happens. Getting told "you're going to Eox"
For your guessing, you are more than doubling the price of the enchantment. You left that out of your calculations. No biggie, you didn't know about that trick.
But you know about it now. And it changes things. A lot. Please reconsider a position that no longer fits the data rather than attempting to do the reverse.
For your guessing, you are more than doubling the price of the enchantment. You left that out of your calculations. No biggie, you didn't know about that trick.
But you know about it now. And it changes things. A lot. Please reconsider a position that no longer fits the data rather than attempting to do the reverse.
I did know about that "trick" actually. However as mentioned, it is one I disregard as an exploit that should be dealt with. And preferably on the next round of FAQs. Even if not, it requires the GM be aware of what fusions it could be done with based on available item levels for each different fusion (plus it loses punch as the cost of weapons rises exponentially faster than the cost of fusions).
When an exploit like this is discovered in a video game, it gets patched to balance it again. While that is more difficult for a tabletop due to a few lines of code being easier to change then a few pages of a book, it will end up done. When it does, the "trick" will be gone, people will complain, but the game will resume being on the balance scale that was intended for it.
the 24 hour spin up time is a limitation but with the duration of travel through the drift not really that huge of a one. If you to a world that is known it is pretty easy to check the info sphere to see a general beastiary of what threats you may encounter and adjust accordingly. Having some seals that you can swap in to gear up for your expected environment seems a viable use of them.
Honestly normal fusions probably should have the same kind of limitation where they take 24 hours to fully kick in. I think the timer on it is to prevent you from just rapidly switching fusion types during an active dungeon area.
When an exploit like this is discovered in a video game, it gets patched to balance it again. While that is more difficult for a tabletop due to a few lines of code being easier to change then a few pages of a book, it will end up done. When it does, the "trick" will be gone, people will complain, but the game will resume being on the balance scale that was intended for it.
I'm not entirely sure its an exploit. Without it a trailblazer fusion and a vorpal infusion on a level 10 gun cost the same, which is nuttier.
But as it is it isn't even rules questionable , so i don't see how you can expect a conversation to not take it into account.
In a videogame, the fusion seal would be patched too, because players would complain it's useless to put it in their weapon now, and not be able to use it until tomorrow.
So I'm not sure the videogame comparison helps to solve this conversation anyways.
The problem with the fusion seal is not only that it's more expensive. It's that it's supposed adventage, that you can freely swap it and slap it into whatever weapon you want instantly, is eliminated by the fact that you have to wait 24 hours after slapping it.
Having to wait 24 hours for somethign that it's advertised as instant when you buy it would mean an instant claim form from me in real life.
I'm not entirely sure its an exploit. Without it a trailblazer fusion and a vorpal infusion on a level 10 gun cost the same, which is nuttier.
Except it's not really "nuttier". The levels on fusions aren't indicative of their power level, they're a balance. An entry gate in the case of critical modifiers saying "this is the equipment level where this critical effect is appropriate", and a way to say "this fusion is worth X points towards a weapon's total" or you could stack fusions infinitely. Compare it to how in Pathfinder, you could upgrade to +10 total, but adding something like Flaming counted as X levels.
To use your two examples, of course Trailblazer and Vorpal cost the same on a 10th level weapon.
In the case of Vorpal, in the CRB (not digging through 40 pages of Armory weapons to hunt down every one with the Severe Wound Critical effect) weapons with Severe Wound are all about level 10. Getting it earlier is a strong ability, a bit too strong for a level 1 or 2 piece of gear. The Doshkos have Wound at the earliest level, 2 but not Severe Wound.
For Trailblazer, in particular it's underwater abilities, you get a lot more out of it on higher level weapons. Negating 1/2 damage underwater is bigger on higher level gear. The level 1 Assault Hammer, to use my hammer example earlier, is 1d6, so halved you're losing 1-3 points of damage not including Str and specialization (as the latter is unavailable level 1). On the level 10 Comet Hammer's 4d6, that's a variance of loss of 2-12, plus much heavier losses on the specialization side of 4+ points. Trailblazer does a lot more on a high level weapon.
So it's not nutty that Fusion cost is based on the weapon, cause many of those low level fusions scale pretty heavy onto high level gear. This is an exploit that people are using because, at least I believe, Paizo wanted it to feel better to buy a fusion early in a system where your gear is constantly cycled out. So that buying a fusion to keep with you wasn't a waste of resources, and you didn't have to give up your current Flaming weapon you like just because you hit the point of needing an upgrade.
In a videogame, the fusion seal would be patched too, because players would complain it's useless to put it in their weapon now, and not be able to use it until tomorrow.
So I'm not sure the videogame comparison helps to solve this conversation anyways.The problem with the fusion seal is not only that it's more expensive. It's that it's supposed adventage, that you can freely swap it and slap it into whatever weapon you want instantly, is eliminated by the fact that you have to wait 24 hours after slapping it.
Having to wait 24 hours for somethign that it's advertised as instant when you buy it would mean an instant claim form from me in real life.
The 24 hours thing has been mentioned more than 4 times by 2 different people as not really an issue. Any space travel between two points in the game takes 1d4+ days minimum as of Armory. Overland travel can take even longer than that.
Situationally, there are instances where transferring are better. I would label them as follows.
- Fusions critical to your character design (I.E. Cruel on a Quick Dispiriting Taunt Envoy)
- You desperately need the fusion RIGHT NOW during a 10 minute rest when you have the UPBs to do it yourself
- Fusions that would get very little use if only temporary (E.G. Critical hit effect fusions)
Instances where seals are better are largely the opposite.
- Fusions useful for a particular setting or adventure (E.G. Disruptive on a trip to Eox, or Trailblazer heading to Nisis in the Diaspora)
- Instances where you have time to prepare (I.E. On the trip to anywhere)
Circumstance makes either option preferable. Ignoring that fact because it doesn't suit your view is short-sighted at best. You're talking more expensive when:
A) It costs significantly more to be transferring fusions all over the place whenever you need to swap your gear.
B) You can transfer to and from Fusion Seals. You don't have to buy a new max-level seal every time you make a trip, you can upgrade an existing one for less than even the exploit can make fusion cost.
With considering the exploit, for the long term, seals are still cheaper. Seals are the only universal piece of equipment you can put fusions on, so you don't need a base piece of gear, you're just pating 10% extra on the minimum seal cost, then 50% of the seal's cost for the level you want. The exception would be anything you can get away with putting on ammunition, if the cost of the ammunition is less than 50% of the seal's cost.
Example:
Exploit with level 5 Explosive Mini Rockets (Armory)
450 credits (Rockets) + (720/2) credits (Level 5 Fusion)
450 + 360 = 810 credits
Level 5 Seal
720 × 1.1 = 792 credits
So you can play an intense math game for the exploit to see exactly which gear levels are available for each fusion, or accept it was not the designer's intent. If it was, the fusion level would directly factor into the price, which it does not. Continuing though, more math.
On any temporary fusion, the seal is cheaper. Regardless of how you slice it. There is 0 cost to putting a seal on, compared to having to move fusions around through transfer. Let's look at Disruptive and Trailblazer on a weapon that only has 3 available levels, first without the exploit then with and see if it costs within the 10% margin.
Example:
In this scenario, we are moving from Eox and wanting Disruptive to Nisis wanting Trailblazer. The math is different reversed. The example weapon will be my favorite, the Comet Hammer (level 10).
Without exploit using transfer
3,580 credits (Disruptive fusion for hammer)
484 credits (Disruptive fusion removal to seal (cheapest option to not lose))
3,580 credits (Trailblazer fusion)
Total: 8,184 credits
Without exploit using transfer (assuming the fusions are already owned)
1,790 credits (Disruptive fusion transfer)
484 credits (Disruptive fusion removal to seal)
1,790 credits (Trailblazer fusion transfer)
Total: 4,064 credits
With exploit using transfer (fusions unowned)
484 credits (Disruptive seal level 3)
1,790 credits (Disruptive transfer)
484 credits (Disruptive removal)
65 credits (Trailblazer seal on a dart 1 (I am not sure however, if a dart is a viable target for the Trailblazer fusion. I'm going extremes though))
1,790 credits (Trailblazer transfer)
Total: 4,613 credits
Without exploit using seals (fusions unowned)
3,938 credits (Disruptive seal level 10)
3,938 credits (Trailblazer seal level 10)
Total: 7,876 credits
Without exploit using seals (fusions owned)
1,969 credits (transfer to Disruptive seal level 10)
1,969 credits (transfer to Trailblazer seal level 10)
Total: 3,938 credits
With exploit using seals (fusions unowned)
484 credits (Disruptive seal level 3)
1,969 credits (transfer to Disruptive seal level 10)
65 credits (Trailblazer fusion on dart 1)
1,969 credits (transfer to Trailblazer seal level 10)
Total: 4,487 credits
So, in every case, seals are cheaper than constant transfer. The exception is if you're wanting to toss away bought fusions, however then you have to consider that's 100% sunk cost, and needing to rebuy the fusion (exploit or otherwise) full if you want it again. Even if you were only going temporary, at least you can sell a fusion back for 10% return (11% of the base fusion cost due to the 10% seal price increase).
Boom! I need a break after all that.
Except it's not really "nuttier". The levels on fusions aren't indicative of their power level
....
"this is the equipment level where this critical effect is appropriate"
<---- That is pretty much the defintion of their power level
"this fusion is worth X points towards a weapon's total" <--- That is pretty much the definition of a power level.
or you could stack fusions infinitely. Compare it to how in Pathfinder, you could upgrade to +10 total, but adding something like Flaming counted as X levels.
And cost less than the vorpal enchant. So... this makes my point too.
To use your two examples, of course Trailblazer and Vorpal cost the same on a 10th level weapon.
Should. You are trying to make an argument that they SHOULD and... its not working.
Even then you need a really weird set of circumstances for the seal to work. You don't know when you're going to get an upgrade and you don't know when you're going to need to swap it out. If you're going to eox after undead you might need disruptive to hop in whack someone and hop out or you might be there running down leads for 6 levels.
So you need to change the rules of the game AND know whats coming.
Should. You are trying to make an argument that they SHOULD and... its not working.
Even then you need a really weird set of circumstances for the seal to work. You don't know when you're going to get an upgrade and you don't know when you're going to need to swap it out. If you're going to eox after undead you might need disruptive to hop in whack someone and hop out or you might be there running down leads for 6 levels.
So you need to change the rules of the game AND know whats coming.
There's a difference between not working and having an unreceptive listener.
I have made not one, but two enormous math points on the benefits of seals in the setting. Both including, and not including a current exploit.
I, and others, can prove you wrong in fact, but your opinion refuses to change. Which is your right as a human to express your opinion regardless of its basis in fact.
To the highlighted point above, yes, you're right. But fusion or seal that still applies. If it is a fusion you desire permanently (like I want Cruel for my Envoy) probably get it as a fusion and transfer it with each upgrade. If it's something you think you might need temporarily like Disruptive, get it as a seal. If you get an upgrade halfway through the adventure you can always transfer it to a higher level seal, the exact same way you could a regular fusion. The only difference is if you feel you're done with it, at least you can sell it back without spending more money, or selling your entire weapon.
And yes, you may go to Eox and never fight a single undead. You may go to Nisis and never fight underwater. You could pack hot weather gear for a trip to Castrovel and end up spending all yout time in the cold peaks. I used examples that had pretty obvious connotations though. Most players preparing for an adventure, which is something you do, would make a number of conclusions. If you're wrong, you're wrong. It happens. However, as the saying generally gos "it is better to have something and not need it, then need it and not have it".
And with that, I will step away from this thread. I have put the facts on the table, and there is little more to do than that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The 24 hours thing has been mentioned more than 4 times by 2 different people as not really an issue.
It has been mentioned by 2 people as being an issue, too. Your point was?
Any space travel between two points in the game takes 1d4+ days minimum as of Armory. Overland travel can take even longer than that.
Great. Instead of that Schroedinger AP of yours, let's take a neutral one, made by Paizo. Like Dead Suns.
How exactky does that help you with a fusión Seal? Do you know what enemies you expect to find when you explore unknown planets
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And with that, I will step away from this thread. I have put the facts on the table, and there is little more to do than that.
I don't know how your phone autocorrected "opinion" into "fact", but here we are.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
.
I have made not one, but two enormous math points on the benefits of seals in the setting. Both including, and not including a current exploit.
I don't know how your phone autocorrected "game rule" into "exploit", but here we are
Exploration of the unknown in a Space Opera is bad GMing? Good to know.
Let's take Dead Suns 4.
What fusion seals do you use? Then go and compare it with what you actually find there.
most experienced gms don’t use them or use them only for inspiration
Prepublished modules are a great starting point for new groups to get into the game or for lazy gms, and are not indicative of the system as a whole
Wow, I want to see some hard data behind those statements.
May not count as "hard data," but my usual GM and my boyfriend both never use adventure modules. I don't think I've ever played in one, either.