Outsider form spells?

[Zenyix]

We have a number of transformation spells that allow you to take on the appearance and some abilities of different creatures (beast shape, fey form, form of the dragon, ect) so I'm wondering why there isn't one for turning oneself into an angel/demon/kami and the like. Perhaps there is one and I simply overlooked it, if not would anyone be able to provide some reasoning as to why such a spell was excluded?

[DeathlessOne]

Fey form is a somewhat recent addition to the list. I can't speak to the reasoning or justification, just that it isn't really an option. Closest you are going to get is spells like Angelic Aspect (Lesser) or via Planar Wildshape (Celestial/Abyssal Animals).

[Isabelle Lee]

I did briefly consider something like this when working on spells for Planar Adventures. The main problems I saw are:

There's far too much variance among outsider shapes and qualities to make all-purpose, one size fits all form of the outsider spells. "(Size) outsider" is an incredibly broad category, and I didn't want to sort through every outsider in existence to see what might be at risk, nor risk any newly released outsider breaking the spells. In addition, with SRD culture being what it is, I didn't want false assumptions about what constitutes a "non-unique entity" for the spells' purpose. See, for example, d20pfsrd's "harbinger daemon", or arguments about whether the Great Old One Yig is unique or not. And then there's the question of what qualities the spell would grant, both in terms of power level and extreme diversity among outsiders. The polymorph spells have to specify every ability you could gain, after all.

I also, briefly, considered trying to make subtype spells - angel shape, etc. Beyond what's mentioned above, the enemy here is wordcount... there's only so much space in the book for this, and these would have gobbled up a huge chunk of it.

I settled for creating a native outsider variant. Hopefully you find it reasonably interesting. ^_^

[ErichAD]

Another close option is the Halcyon Druid's "embody mask" ability. It doesn't add very much to the ability set honestly, but it will get you many of the outsider's shape based abilities seeing as how it's based on beastshape 4. It doesn't come online till 13th level, but the archetype is druid with some wizard spell access, so it's not a bad archetype on its own.

[Potato disciple]

It should be possible to do something like "Form of the Oustider [size, alignment]" and then in the description split it up to various outsider categories, like:

Form of the Evil Outsider
School transmutation (polymorph); Level cleric 3, druid 5, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute per level

You assume the form of a Small or Medium creature of the outsider type and the evil subtype. Your base speed changes to match the new form’s base speed, with a maximum speed of 60 feet. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain those abilities: climb speed 30 feet, fly speed 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim speed 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, [insert low powered abilities unique to evil outsiders, preferably 1 or two from each subtype], and scent. If the form you assume has the aquatic subtype, you can breathe air and water. If the creature has any weaknesses, you gain those weaknesses.

You can more easily cast spells that the creature has as spell-like abilities, although you must still cast them as normal for your class. When you cast a spell that the creature has as a spell-like ability, it requires no verbal or somatic components and can’t be countered.

Small evil Outsider: If you assume this form, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Medium evil Outsider: If you assume this form, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.

[Isabelle Lee]

Well-written - you have a good grasp of formatting!

There are other considerations at play, of course. Could the combination of available abilities be most optimally acquired from a specific form, creating an overpowered option? In addition, when creating polymorph spells, remember that they grant all natural attacks of the chosen creature... and outsiders are notorious for pouring a lot of power into a relatively small body. The lilitu demon, for example, offers four 2d8 claws and a tail slap that targets touch AC, along with 60 ft. speed both on land and by air, all at Medium size. And that's just pulling the first thing I thought of from a hardcover Bestiary, without scouring the entire canon.

Hopefully this helps shed some light on the process. ^_^

[UnArcaneElection]

Outsiders aren't the only thing that can pack a lot of power into a Medium package. Euryale comes to mind, accessible with Monstrous Physique I. The Monstrous Physique series of spells needs rebalancing before introducing Outsider Form spells . . . .

[Potato disciple]

Isabelle Lee wrote:

Well-written - you have a good grasp of formatting!

There are other considerations at play, of course. Could the combination of available abilities be most optimally acquired from a specific form, creating an overpowered option? In addition, when creating polymorph spells, remember that they grant all natural attacks of the chosen creature... and outsiders are notorious for pouring a lot of power into a relatively small body. The lilitu demon, for example, offers four 2d8 claws and a tail slap that targets touch AC, along with 60 ft. speed both on land and by air, all at Medium size. And that's just pulling the first thing I thought of from a hardcover Bestiary, without scouring the entire canon.

Hopefully this helps shed some light on the process. ^_^

True. This will be especially bad with things like the marilith... Maybe limit the amount of natural attacks per spell (kinda like what the Form of the Dragon spells do, but "limited to 2 claws, a bite and a tail" instead of "you get 2 claws, a bite, and a tail")?

I'm thinking CR limits should be the way to go. I know it is kinda counter-paizo in that no other spell does that, but for outsider i think we should make an exception.
Thoughts?

[Isabelle Lee]

Hmm. The form of the dragon approach is efficient and has existing precedent. It only really addresses the natural weapon issue, but without a more complete list of potential acquirable special abilities, it's hard to say how worrisome the rest of the spell is.

I'd be loath to submit something based on CR in an official product, due to the dissonance with existing polymorph spells, but it's certainly a direct method. ^_^

[ErichAD]

There's a bunch of outsiders that are just SLA batteries, and there's more than a few who have spell like abilities baked into their stats. The lilitu example for instance has a constant fly spell granting its fly speed, and an extraordinary ability granting two extra claw attacks. I think being off the shapeshift menu this whole time may have left outsiders with more lax design restrictions. That's probably for the best, but it makes things weird when you want to shape into them.

It may work better to make outsider shape a metamagic feat that alters an existing polymorph spell so you don't ignore some forms and don't need to write a spell that includes all of the different shape spells. That way you could introduce it a bit earlier without it seeming like an early access Polymorph spell.

Limit natural weapon attacks to 1+spell level and restrict their damage to that appropriate for their size category.