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So, I am once more trying to fit the Alchemist shape into another class shaped hole and was curious, What archetype, Or combination of archetypes, Would you recomend for a Rogue like Alchemist? Sneaking, Stealing, Picking locks and disabling traps, Taking out enemies and such?
I prefer the CryptBraker in this roll, but a Trapbreaker works almost as well. (Be sure to checkout the Extract reduce person, as it boosts Stealth and Dex).
Wouldn't an investigator be exactly what you are looking for? It's a rogue/ alchemist hybrid class. It has everything you listed.
Vivisectionist Alchemist or Investigator.
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I'm going to second the investigator. It does all the trapfinding and trap disarming better than the rogue, alchemy means that it has more options for scouting, buffing and escaping than the rogue, it is more accurate and its damage is more consistent as well.
It's is still one of my favourite classes in the game.
Well, if you're going to go investigator, you might as well go all out and make it a dex-based swashigator. Swashbuckler1/investigatorX gives you early access dex to damage with a rapier provided you can get either Effortless Lace or the agile weapon enhancement. I really like it with the questioner archetype for the investigator levels. It's a disgustingly good combo, I'm almost ashamed to play it. Almost.
What level are you starting at? I can post a sample build of one of my backup characters at that level when I'm home from work if you like.
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By default, questioners can't cast in armour, which sucks.
Don't most swashigators take inspired blade so they can have fencing grace at level 1 so there is no need for agile or effortless lace. Also, it gives INT to panache.
Have run both Dex feels more right and is slightly better at skills but strength ends up being the superior build.
My last swashigator was not archetyped so I hadn't considered that about the questioner. They cast from the bard list but you make a good point that it does not specify the investigator casts like a bard in any other way. Oh well, it's easy enough to make light armour have little chance of causing ASF and there are feats to reduce it further if you don't like to gamble at all. I'm glad you pointed this out before I started playing my back up. Thanks!
You are correct sir but to make the character keep up in the damage department, you'll want to take Piranha Strike. That requires a light weapon rather than one-handed so I guess not agile, only effortless lace works for that. (I'm at work and doing all this off the top of my head. Sorry if I caused any confusion)
I loved, loved, loved my dex-based swashigator and was very sad when the campaign I was playing him in ended abruptly. He was exactly the type of character I enjoy most (dex-focused, lightly armoured, highly mobile and highly skilled with some casting ability). He was also head and shoulders ahead of the rest of the group in every way: AC, saves, skills, attacks, damage output, etc.; to the point where the GM was getting frustrated trying to balance encounters. If your group is better at optimizing than mine, it might not be quite so remarkable. I have never played a str-based investigator though so can't comment there.
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I see what you were getting at. I just kept 11 STR on mine so I could get an ioun stone and take power attack. You do bring up a good point the biggest drawback to playing a dex investigator, especially an empiricist is everyone at the table will stop rolling skill checks. Mine was rolling the highest check more than 95% of the time at a table of 6. I had to start playing the character as distracted to give people a chance to roll.
At level 5, including your normal buffs of heroism and heightened awareness which you should be able to have active for the important parts of your day. With piranha strike active, you’ll do fine damage. You can add inspiration to your trained knowledge, stealth and linguistic checks for free. As Grandlounge points out, you will have ASF of 10%. I haven’t adjusted my build to account for that since I just realized it yesterday. I’m not sure it’s much of a concern but there are feats to reduce it to 0% if you are really bothered by it.
Elf investigator (questioner) 4/swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Magic Tactics Toolbox 26, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 56, 125)
Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 49 (5 HD; 4d8+1d10+19)
Fort +7, Ref +13, Will +9; +2 vs. enchantments, +2 bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities trap sense +1; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 rapier +12 (1d6+9/18-20 plus 2 precision damage)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte), panache (4), studied combat (+2, 3 rounds), studied strike +1d6
Investigator (Questioner) Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +7)
2nd (2/day)—heroism, versatile weapon[APG] (DC 15)
1st (4/day)—grease, heightened awareness[ACG], tears to wine (DC 14), vanish[APG] (DC 14)
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Fencing Grace[UI], Piranha Strike, Skill Focus (Perception), Toughness, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits forlorn, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +13, Appraise +5, Bluff +9, Climb +1, Diplomacy +9, Disable Device +18, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +6, Fly +6, Heal +3, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +12, Knowledge (planes) +12, Knowledge (religion) +12, Perception +16, Ride +6, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +14, Survival +3, Swim +1
Languages Common, Elven
SQ inspiration (5/day), inspiration for subterfuge, inspired panache, investigator talent (quick study[ACG]), keen recollection, know-it-all, swift alchemy, trapfinding +2
Other Gear +1 mithral chain shirt, +1 rapier, cloak of resistance +1, effortless lace, handy haversack, masterwork thieves' tools
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Special Abilities
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deeds
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Fencing Grace Use Dexterity on rapier damage rolls
Inspiration (+1d6, 5/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Inspiration for Subterfuge (Ex) A questioner can use inspiration on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Stealth checks he attempts without expending a use of inspiration, provided he’s trained in that skill.
This ability alters inspiration.
Inspired Panache (Ex) Gain no panache from killing blow, only from rapier crits.
Keen Recollection At 3rd level, an investigator can attempt all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Know-It-All +1 (Ex) At 2nd level, a questioner receives a +1 bonus on skill checks for all Knowledge skills in which he is trained. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th level and every 3 investigator levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 17th level. If he has the percept
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Quick Study (Ex) Use studied combat as a swift action.
Studied Combat (+2, 3 rounds) (Ex) As a swift action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +1d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) Construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +2 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
At level 10, you could easily work the feats to reduce your ASF to 0% without impacting the build much. You’ll be running with heroism and heightened awareness most of the day again. You can add inspiration to knowledge, stealth, diplomacy, perception and sense motive checks for free. With your inspired rapier you can use inspiration to significantly add to att and damage and with sickening offensive, you’ll debuff your studied target when you hit.
Elf investigator (questioner) 9/swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Magic Tactics Toolbox 26, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 56, 125)
Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +24
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 104 (10 HD; 9d8+1d10+49)
Fort +11, Ref +17, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments, +6 bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities trap sense +3; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 inspired rapier +19/+14 (1d6+12/18-20 plus 4 precision damage)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte), panache (5), studied combat (+4, 4 rounds), studied strike +3d6
Investigator (Questioner) Spells Known (CL 9th; concentration +13)
3rd (4/day)—allied cloak, displacement, good hope, haste
2nd (5/day)—blur, heroism, mirror image, versatile weapon[APG] (DC 16)
1st (6/day)—expeditious retreat, grease, heightened awareness[ACG], tears to wine (DC 15), vanish[APG] (DC 15)
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Fencing Grace[UI], Martial Focus, Piranha Strike, Skill Focus (Perception), Toughness, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits forlorn, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +20, Appraise +6, Bluff +14, Climb +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +26, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +7, Fly +7, Heal +3, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (engineering) +15, Knowledge (geography) +15, Knowledge (history) +15, Knowledge (local) +15, Knowledge (nature) +15, Knowledge (nobility) +15, Knowledge (planes) +15, Knowledge (religion) +15, Perception +24, Ride +7, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +19, Stealth +20, Survival +3, Swim +1
Languages Common, Elven
SQ inspiration (8/day), inspiration for subterfuge, inspired panache, investigator talents (combat inspiration[ACG], expanded inspiration[ACG], quick study[ACG], sickening offensive[ACG], trap spotter), keen recollection, know-it-all, swift alchemy, trapfinding +4
Other Gear +3 mithral chain shirt, +2 inspired rapier, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), cloak of resistance +2, effortless lace, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, masterwork thieves' tools
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Special Abilities
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Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deeds
Eidetic Recollection (Su) Can always take 10 on Knowledge checks, use 1 inspiration to take 20.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Expanded Inspiration (Ex) Free Inspiration on Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive (if trained).
Fencing Grace Use Dexterity on rapier damage rolls
Inspiration (+1d6, 8/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Inspiration for Subterfuge (Ex) A questioner can use inspiration on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Stealth checks he attempts without expending a use of inspiration, provided he’s trained in that skill.
This ability alters inspiration.
Inspired Panache (Ex) Gain no panache from killing blow, only from rapier crits.
Keen Recollection At 3rd level, an investigator can attempt all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Know-It-All +3 (Ex) At 2nd level, a questioner receives a +1 bonus on skill checks for all Knowledge skills in which he is trained. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th level and every 3 investigator levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 17th level. If he has the percept
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Martial Focus (Light Blades) You have honed your skills with a group of related weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: Choose one fighter weapon group. While wielding a weapon from this group with which you are proficient, you gain a +1 bonus
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Quick Study (Ex) Use studied combat as a swift action.
Sickening Offensive (Ex) Studied strike sickens foe for 1 rd.
Studied Combat (+4, 4 rounds) (Ex) As a swift action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +3d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) Construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +4 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Thanks for the builds! =D
No problem, I'm always making characters. This one is to be the brother of another player's character, my Mycroft to his Sherlock, so some choices were made for RP reasons. It's not completely optimized but you can get an idea.
vivisectionist -> sneak attack.
pragmatic activator, clever wordplay -> key UMD and Diplomacy off Int.
put skill ranks into disable device, stealth, and sleight of hand -> sneaking, stealing, picking locks, disabling traps.
you've got 4+Int skill points on an Int-based 6/9 'caster'.